God And Satan

[BigJon16]

In the beginning of the book of Job,
"The lord said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.'
Then Satan went out from the presence of the lord."

So here's the question and Its kind of stupid but I can't wrap my head around it. - Does Satan need Gods permission to do his deeds, or can God just control Satan in certain ways? Like by not permitting Satan to harm Job, or later not letting Satan to kill Job? Or am I misinterpreting this whole thing?

I asked this in the "Questions and Answers About Catholicism" and recieved a very helpful answer, but I'd like to see what you guys think.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=markasread&marktype=forum&forumid=13&returntoforumid=0&i=1"]
[/url]

-- Big Jon.

[Winchester]

I think your avatar is weird.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1294256930' post='2197050']
In the beginning of the book of Job,
"The lord said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.'
Then Satan went out from the presence of the lord."

So here's the question and Its kind of stupid but I can't wrap my head around it. - Does Satan need Gods permission to do his deeds, or can God just control Satan in certain ways? Like by not permitting Satan to harm Job, or later not letting Satan to kill Job? Or am I misinterpreting this whole thing?

I asked this in the "Questions and Answers About Catholicism" and recieved a very helpful answer, but I'd like to see what you guys think.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=markasread&marktype=forum&forumid=13&returntoforumid=0&i=1"]
[/url]

-- Big Jon.
[/quote]

Yes, satan needs God's permission if he is to do anything. [i]No one[/i] can do [i]anything[/i] that God does not allow them to do.

No, God does not "control" satan. satan has free will. God did not force him or even expressly tell him to do anything to Job. God just let satan do whatever he pleased. God basically said, "You can steal/break/etc if you want; I won't stand in the way. But if you try to harm the man himself, I will stand in the way."

That's the way I've always understood it, anyway.

Pax et bonum,
~Tally Marx

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tally Marx

[BigJon16]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1294258851' post='2197062']
I think your avatar is weird.
[/quote]

...Ugh...Okay? Lol.

Iam a Revolutionary War reenactor. It is a picture of me in my Kit.

--Big Jon

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1294272980' post='2197211']
...Ugh...Okay? Lol.

Iam a Revolutionary War reenactor. It is a picture of me in my Kit.

--Big Jon
[/quote]

Well, I think it is rather neat.
I like old-fashioned things, though I lean more toward the Renaissance period.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Tally Marx

[Mark of the Cross]

hmmmm interesting! Apparently satan can use logic against God.

[Ed Normile]

I thought that verse meant that satan could use anything against man, his emotions, his greed, lust or envy or his possesions to try and make him fall, but he could never physically influence him unless that person would let him in.

ed

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1294464855' post='2197747']
hmmmm interesting! Apparently satan can use logic against God.
[/quote]

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1294546987' post='2197983']

[/quote]

I had the very same reaction to that.

No, Satan can't make logical arguments to change God's mind, because God is in perfect balance of his logic and his emotions. We as human beings are not, but God is - and because God is - he can't be influenced in any way through deception or any tool of Satan. But God was interested to see how Job would react if all the things he owned were taken from him, and allowed it to happen.

BTW, Job experiences are not pleasant, you can take my word on that. I had one of the most awful experiences ever last year - because I was stuck in a group with someone I am pretty sure is a 'card carrying member of the church of Satan' - and we didn't get along in the group project we worked on, he even went behind my back to try to get our professors to kick me off the group project - something I only learned during the beginning of this school year. But I made it through last year, and I have totally renewed confidence in God, because God will fight battles for me that I don't even know about.

God is amazing! Oh how I love him for sending his own son to us, to live and die for our sins and rising up again for us to believe in him! He's awesome!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1294546987' post='2197983']

[/quote]

Yes, that was my feeling when I suddenly realised what that meant. God created everything including logic? but here [i]apparently[/i] satan uses that logic to force God do what God doesn't really want to do.

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294549964' post='2198005']
. But God was interested to see how Job would react if all the things he owned were taken from him, and allowed it to happen.

[/quote]

God experiments with those he loves??? For what purpose? Just for interests sake or to win a bet with satan? Illogical captain! God loves Job and rewards Jobs love of him by giving everything he desires and protecting him from ALL adversary. satan claims unfair and that of course Job will love the hand that feeds him. So lets see if Job will still be loyal when everything is taken from him. BTW Job is us! If God gives those that love him preference over others[b], the Purpose[/b] will be defeated. Would God allow all the terrible things in the world to happen if there were another way. Did he allow his beloved son to be crucified just to see what happened or to show that his love for us is so great that he could not avoid his pain and still ask us to bear ours? Unless someone can come up with a better explanation, it appears as though there are rules which God has to abide by. Of course he could have said no to satan and can and does stop satan inflicting us when it [b]suits the purpose[/b]. I can see where there is no doubt that satan attempted to destroy me and then something happened to thwart it which I believe was God.

[BigJon16]

I think I figured it out: before the "two trials" God kind of brags to Satan about Job[b]:"Have you notivced my servant Job, and that there is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright , fearing God and avoiding evil?"(Job 1:8)[/b] and then Satan challenges God on this replying: "[b]Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely blaspheme you to your face." (Job 1:9-11)
[/b]
During the "first trial": [b]"While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "Lightning* has fallen from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" (Job 1:16)[/b] **Lightning: literally God's fire.

So God did this? I think he may have. To prove to Satan how faithful his followers can be.

Ater this Job does not blaspheme: [b]"At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing."(Job 1:20-22[/b])

Then in Job 2 God brags about Job and Satan challenges God once more: [b]Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason." "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."[/b] [b](Job 2:3-5)

[/b]Job is then stricken with a terrible desease and still Job will not curse god, even though his wife pressures him to. And here comes the big and most obvious "moral to the story so far": "[b]But he said to her, "are we even going to speak as sensless women do? [i]We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil?" Trough all this Job said nothing sinful."[/i][/b] [b](Job 2:10)

[/b]Praise God! I prayed and prayed for the wisdom to understand this and now I think I fiannaly do. It's just the rest of the book of Job that I need to study, only 40 more chapters to go!! That is as long as I interprited this right.

Thanks for all your helpful insight, people!

--And Mark of the Cross, I agree with you . haha

Edited January 9, 2011 by BigJon16

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1294569208' post='2198100']Illogical captain![/quote]

Love is never logical. I loved a woman who said aliens downloaded the future in her brain, which caused her great pain. If I was purely logical about the situation, I would have left her the moment she said aliens planned on having children with her.

Logic can not ever fully explain God because Logic only comes from the left side of your brain. God gave you this marvelous thing called the right side of your brain so you can experience emotions (like love), imagination and creativity. I suggest you stop trying to be like Spock and Data, and try being like the man God made you to be! To try to explain everything with logic is to only experience half of what a human being can experience! Expand your horizon's brother, expand them!

You can also go into scripture and say, why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Issac to him, why the hell would God test Abraham like that. It's the same thing, God wanted to see if Abraham and Job would be faithful, and because Abraham and Job was faithful to him during those tests, and never let go of God and his promises and continued to obey him, God blessed them after!

Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294592213' post='2198153']
Love is never logical.
[/quote]
Huh! You mean God didn't want to be logical so he agreed to bring misfortune on someone he loves??? I think you are getting God confused with (Insert favourite Phatmass poster.)

[quote]I loved a woman who said aliens downloaded the future in her brain, which caused her great pain. If I was purely logical about the situation, I would have left her the moment she said aliens planned on having children with her.
[/quote]
But you couldn't leave her until they let one of you out?

[quote]Logic can not ever fully explain God because Logic only comes from the left side of your brain. God gave you this marvelous thing called the right side of your brain so you can experience emotions (like love), imagination and creativity. I suggest you stop trying to be like Spock and Data, and try being like the man God made you to be! To try to explain everything with logic is to only experience half of what a human being can experience! Expand your horizon's brother, expand them!
[/quote]
Yeah, but he gave me a left brain to keep me balanced and sane!

[quote]You can also go into scripture and say, why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Issac to him, why the hell would God test Abraham like that. It's the same thing, God wanted to see if Abraham and Job would be faithful, and because Abraham and Job was faithful to him during those tests, and never let go of God and his promises and continued to obey him, God blessed them after!
[/quote]
Sounds pretty left brain to me!

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1294569208' post='2198100']
Yes, that was my feeling when I suddenly realised what that meant. God created everything including logic? but here [i]apparently[/i] satan uses that logic to force God do what God doesn't really want to do.
[/quote]
So you think Satan forced God to do something? Sorry, but that sounds like a pretty lame god...

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1294706581' post='2198763']
So you think Satan forced God to do something? Sorry, but that sounds like a pretty lame god...
[/quote]

I believe this is the debate board not the statement board. If you have a better explanation I would love to hear it.

I would consider a God that let his beloved son be tortured and killed for a lesser reason, other than he had no other option, would be a very lame God.