MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1294555875' post='2198052'] We go to the Church Jesus left us (Matthew 16). This isn't secret information, but is the teaching of the Apostles, prior to the writing of the NT and canonising of the Bible as a whole. Even Paul instructed the early Christians to hold fast to his teachings, whether written or oral (2 Thes 2). God bless [/quote] That's circular logic, My first argument is that we need the Bible to discern what people are saying to test if it is of God or not. But the argument presented to me was not everything is in the bible, so my argument to that is - but that means there is secret information that prevents me from discerning if what people are saying is of God or not, so your argument, there is no secret, just go to the Catholic Church - but how do I discern if someone in the catholic church is saying something of God or not, unless I go back to the scriptures that state - [quote]Hebrews 4:12 For the [b]word[/b] of [b]God[/b] [b]is[/b] quick, and powerful, and [b]sharper[/b] than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [b]is[/b] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/quote] How can I discern what is in another person's heart, unless I compare it to the word of God, the Bible? That means anybody can come up to me and say, because my religion says this, and that, and this other thing - you must also do if, and I must obey like a slave to that person if I don't believe God's full revelation is not in the Bible! Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1294535482' post='2197912'] Papist, first I love the name, I have actually been called a Papist several times during my life by those who used it as an insult. I am sorry if I came off as disagreeable with you, I did not mean it that way I was just trying to clarify what I wrote. I get testy here some time as I have been berated and gang attacked just for stating an opinion here and I guess I felt your post was going to be the start of another round of abuse. I see you are new here, a hint for you, do not say its not proper to drink in the consecrated ground of a catholic crypt for cardinals or you will get smacked down by the masses ! ed [/quote] Thanks for the tip, although I am not sure what it means. I have difficultly in online forums b/c I use the Socratic method. This method is not that compatible with online forums. Most people take my question as if I am attacking thier assertion as if I am saying they are wrong. People usually take me as difficult. Therefore, I am well trained in the art of apology. I prefer in person dialog. I thought the whole point of these forums is to dailog back and forth with raw honesty. Many times in turns into a dual of wits, quotes, etc. Pride is a terrible thing. Edited January 9, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 He also said "He who is not against us is for us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Mark, Scripture is important, to be sure, but it is not the only source of Divine Revelation, as we also have Sacred Tradition. This is corroborated both by the Bible, and by history, for we see that the early Christians did not have a defined canon of Scripture. We see Jesus giving us a Church, but not a canon of Scripture. We see the Apostles making a decision regarding circumcision and expecting the entire Church to follow it, not to have people look at their own interpretations of Scripture. We trust that God keeps His promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail over His Church, and so listen to Her. As for discerning a person's heart, that is up to God. I cannot discern another's heart. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1294583013' post='2198114'] He also said "He who is not against us is for us." [/quote] I agree with you on that, I'm just saying, scripture is an important document to discern what people are teaching, and if that teaching contradicts it, adds to it, or anything else, it is completely optional (except the contradicts part - it will never be okay for abortions, for instance - though you are called to love the men and women who perform them or have had them!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1294586746' post='2198121'] Mark, Scripture is important, to be sure, but it is not the only source of Divine Revelation, as we also have Sacred Tradition. This is corroborated both by the Bible, and by history, for we see that the early Christians did not have a defined canon of Scripture. We see Jesus giving us a Church, but not a canon of Scripture. We see the Apostles making a decision regarding circumcision and expecting the entire Church to follow it, not to have people look at their own interpretations of Scripture. We trust that God keeps His promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail over His Church, and so listen to Her. As for discerning a person's heart, that is up to God. I cannot discern another's heart. God bless [/quote] I would like to point out, you said your traditions are corroborated by the Bible, and history. Well, doesn't that mean you just said, if your sacred traditions weren't part of the Bible, than you would have to throw them out! I have to disagree with you on the discernment of another's heart, as God does give the gift of discernment of spirits. Or are you saying any con-man can come up to you and say, hey dude, give me 3,000 dollars and I will turn it into a 1,000,000 for you, and you would actually give them that money. If you wouldn't, and I hope you wouldn't, then you have proved you have the ability to discern another person's heart and another person's spirit! Those types of things are always one part spiritual, you can feel in your gut that what someone is saying isn't right, and one part knowledge of the bible! Though, with what I see in the world today, I do see a lack of people using the discernment of spirits - or why would there be 1.1 billion atheists and agnostics in this world. Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294593493' post='2198162'] I agree with you on that, I'm just saying, scripture is an important document to discern what people are teaching, and if that teaching contradicts it, adds to it, or anything else, it is completely optional ..[/quote] Scripture is one of the 3 pillars of the Church, but so is the Sacred Tradition from where Scriptures came, and the teaching Authority of the Church - the Magisterium. Scriptures cannot stand alone, because they did not come from isolation, but from the heart of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1294594475' post='2198168'] Scripture is one of the 3 pillars of the Church, but so is the Sacred Tradition from where Scriptures came, and the teaching Authority of the Church - the Magisterium. Scriptures cannot stand alone, because they did not come from isolation, but from the heart of the Church. [/quote] Or is it the traditions that came from the scriptures? You can't know, can you, because were are not there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 STORMSTOPPER[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__cEsDmRxXqY/TQKRLZOg7AI/AAAAAAAABEA/NA5bW2Cy1Wg/s1600/lol-face.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1294598789' post='2198185'] STORMSTOPPER[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__cEsDmRxXqY/TQKRLZOg7AI/AAAAAAAABEA/NA5bW2Cy1Wg/s1600/lol-face.jpg[/img] [/quote] Run for the hills, someone with a different opinion. Hunker down guys, get in those trenches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294597298' post='2198181'] Or is it the traditions that came from the scriptures? You can't know, can you, because were are not there! [/quote] Sacred Tradition does not, in any shape or form, contradict the Holy Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294599328' post='2198193'] Sacred Tradition does not, in any shape or form, contradict the Holy Scriptures. [/quote] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294599889' post='2198197'] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them! [/quote] If you trust the Scriptures, then you trust the men of the Catholic Church who listened to the Holy Spirit and, with great wisdom, compiled the Scriptures into what we call "The Holy Bible". The Scriptures can only be interpreted in light of Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is protected by God Himself. If you choose not to listen to the Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself, you will be reading various versions, translations, and interpretations of the Bible as dictated by man, not God. So in truth one would not be trusting in Scriptures alone, but trusting in man alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294599889' post='2198197'] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them! [/quote] Without Sacred Tradition and the Church to teach us Sacred Scripture, Sacred Scripture can be said or interpreted to mean what anyone wants. Yes the 'god lottery preachers' or those that teach the false doctrine of the prosperity gospel are wrong and teach heresy. But if one goes by Sacred Scripture alone without the Church to guide us each person will have their own interpretation. This is why there as so many protestant communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294600361' post='2198201'] If you trust the Scriptures, then you trust the men of the Catholic Church who listened to the Holy Spirit and, with great wisdom, compiled the Scriptures into what we call "The Holy Bible". The Scriptures can only be interpreted in light of Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is protected by God Himself. If you choose not to listen to the Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself, you will be reading various versions, translations, and interpretations of the Bible as dictated by man, not God. So in truth one would not be trusting in Scriptures alone, but trusting in man alone. [/quote] I disagree that it has to be interpreted in light of the teachings of men, and you are taking a huge leap of faith in saying that it is protected by God. Where's your proof that all teachings of the Catholic faith has been blanketed by God? [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294600569' post='2198203'] Without Sacred Tradition and the Church to teach us Sacred Scripture, Sacred Scripture can be said or interpreted to mean what anyone wants. Yes the 'god lottery preachers' or those that teach the false doctrine of the prosperity gospel are wrong and teach heresy. But if one goes by Sacred Scripture alone without the Church to guide us each person will have their own interpretation. This is why there as so many protestant communities. [/quote] What I am saying there should be a hierachy of their spiritual priorities. Jesus first. Scripture second, traditions of men third. According to wise men who were also lead by the holy spirit, our law makers say that written and visual (like photographs and videos) proof is far greater evidence than someone's word, shouldn't scripture also be far greater evidence of what Jesus said than what some man says - and therefore we should trust what Jesus said in scripture more than what one person says Jesus told them? Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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