Josephite Marriage

[CatherineM]

I discussed this with my husband at some length before posting this. First off, he said a Josephite marriage would definitely NOT work for him. I could probably adjust to it if something happened to one of us physically. That happens with age some times, medications, infirmities. What he did tell me is that Madonna House was designed for Josephite marriages in the beginning. They are a lay apostolate that operates the Marian Centre here that Austin works with.

I did know a couple back home that lived in a relationship that might remotely be considered Josephite. They were a lesbian couple who were older, wanted to come back to the church, but couldn't really separate for financial reasons. They became roommates.

[abrideofChrist]

This is what the Roman Rota says about entering a "marriage" with the intention not to give the other the right to consummation:

[i]Coram[/i] Funghini, 12 November 1986, RRDec., 78:607: Since matrimonial consent is the act through which both contractants yield and accept the perpetual and exclusive right to the body for acts [i]per se[/i] apt for the [u]generation[/u] of offspring, [b]one contracts invalidly who in manifesting consent has the firm will not to place or allow any such act. [/b][u]But the intention to postpone offspring or to limit the number of children does not fall under this censure because[/u] … [u]the right to offspring is not denied[/u] … even through the exercise of the right is limited.

[Bold my addition]

[MithLuin]

Yes. Delaying the consummation of the marriage is acceptable. After all, there is no rule that says you must consummate the marriage on the wedding night. However, the intent to never consummate...means that you did not intend to get married. That's....a bit...dishonest.

Not dishonest to your partner, if the person agreed to that, I hasten to add. Just dishonest to get up in front of a community and say that you are his to have and to hold...but not really.

But if you haven't denied a request to fulfill your marital obligations (because neither partner has ever made the request), then you haven't technically gone back on your vows. It is human nature, though, to reconsider at some point.


I knew about a similar case in San Fran, [b]Catherine[/b]. A post-op trans man (so, now female, sorta) lived with his male partner, but later chastely, because they were orthodox Jews, and took the passage from Leviticus seriously.

[Lilllabettt]

I have participated in a few discussions, both in real life and online, about josephite marriages; and I've got to say, the reaction, which sometimes comes off as rather scornful, is bewildering to me. Vocation Station is usually a very supportive place, but not so much on this. I'm thinking, why is that? There is nothing inherently sinful or spiritually illegimiate about this way of life. I think when we get to Heaven we will find many saints there who quietly lived and died in josephite marraiges. I could never take that path myself, but there are billions of people on earth and they are all called in particular ways.

In response to what different people have said:
The validity or legitimacy of a particular way of serving God is in no way determined by its recongition in canon law or liturgical rubrics. This particular way of life should not be seen as an attack on children or sex. People who choose to live in an authentic josephite marraige do not view sex as "dirty," nor do they look down on parents as less than. Also: the mission of someone in a josephite marriage is not any less "important" than someone called to raise up saints for God.

I know a consecrated virgin who lives in a josephite marriage. That raises some dilemmas in my mind, but since they have the permission of their bishop and the blessing of the Church, I cannot be in any way critical of them. It requires a lot of careful discernment, spiritually mature, fully informed parties, and a great deal of grace from God. But if people are faithful to that way of life, it can give great glory to God as well.

[CatherineM]

Lillabette-I suspect some of the scorn is based in most of us knowing that we would never have that kind of spiritual maturity. We can't imagine being that strong in our faith and self control. We're in a culture where two teenagers on a movie date can't imagine not having sex, so the idea that a married couple could go without, is unfathomable.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1294374000' post='2197543']
Lillabette-I suspect some of the scorn is based in most of us knowing that we would never have that kind of spiritual maturity. We can't imagine being that strong in our faith and self control. We're in a culture where two teenagers on a movie date can't imagine not having sex, so the idea that a married couple could go without, is unfathomable.
[/quote]

I don't think so.

I think there's just disagreement about the legitimacy of the vocation. Which is okay.

On the other hand...

I was thinking about this in terms of those who... for whatever reason... [i]can't[/i] have a physically intimate relationship. Someone earlier gave the example of a converted homosexual couple.

I think the difficulty is in calling it a "marriage"-- whether its with a chaste homosexual couple or two heterosexuals. I don't think it can be a sacramental marriage with consummation. Actually, in most states, it's not even a legal marriage without consummation... although people don't think about that when they approve of "homosexual marriage". We have some contradictory laws in a few of our states right now.

[truthfinder]

I guess I'm going to dare to enter the quagmire of this topic. I really only have one thought to offer. Thinking about the Josephite marriages that have occured through the centuries, the most celibrated ones ( so the ones that we know about) are those which were often entered into because the marriages were forced. Maybe one of the spouses had taken a vow of chastity and then their family forced the marriage. Or like Mary, it just wouldn't not have been proper to be with child without a spouse (even if only betrothed.) I believe there is also a tradition that she was vowed to God anyway. The impression I get of the Therese's parents was that the chaste marriage was really Louis's idea, and that Zelie really didn't want to have any part of it, but didn't have much choice. (That's just my read on the situation.)

In my opinion, most of the Josephite marriages were due to external forces, not an internal calling. And no offense to anyone, but I really don't know how you could label an existing (and consummated marriage) a Josephite one. It would certainly be honourable to mutually agree on continence, but having consummated the marriage is contrary to what a Josephite marriage is, imho. In this day and age, women can live in the world without a husband and without having to enter a convent. This is very different than many centuries of women before us. With CV now an option again, as well as other possiblities (I'm thinking perhaps Opus Dei ) women don't have to be forced into marriage or a convent to lead an "honourable" life. Please don't get me wrong, this is not what I'm suggesting for anyone wanting to enter a Josephite marriage now would have as their motivation.

The reason for marriage is to ensure that the spouses help each other towards heaven. Part of marriage is the spousal act, and being open to it (yes, I know, it's not everything.) Without that bond which renders a sacramental bond indissolvable, I really can't see the difference between a marriage of this kind and a really close, spiritual friendship. I think that's as far as I'm going to go. Really careful discernment is needed, regardless.

[regina_coeli]

Thanks Truthfinder-- a well written and well reasoned reply.

[Cherie]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1294374000' post='2197543']
Lillabette-I suspect some of the scorn is based in most of us knowing that we would never have that kind of spiritual maturity. We can't imagine being that strong in our faith and self control. We're in a culture where two teenagers on a movie date can't imagine not having sex, so the idea that a married couple could go without, is unfathomable.
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying, and certainly for many secular people that would be true. But I think some of the "scorn" in Catholic circles may come from the fact that the normal way of living out marriage according to God's will involves sexual relations, and perhaps some people think an interest in a Josephite Marriage is formed from an unhealthy view of sexuality, or an adherence, however subconscious, to a Jansenist way of thinking.

[KatherineD]

Joyful Life,

I’m coming to this 8 years after your post, so maybe your question is null and void, but I also feel called to a Josephite marriage with my husband. A great help is Christian Cocchini’s book, _The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy_. There is a chapter in this book detailing the vast amount of early Christians who, as married people, chose celibate marriage to enable them to live lives of missionary service for the Kingdom. Sometimes the mutual help of marriage (emotional and practical support, etc.) is needed in life, even while living a consecrated life. It’s possible to do both. I do think it’s easier when both partners have already lived a celibate commitment through discerning a religious vocation.

 

[Xavier Perez-Pons]

I would like to share with you an experience from many years ago but whose memory still nourishes my romantic hope...

I was thirteen years old. My sister two years younger than I used to bring home some of her classmates to do homework together. That afternoon, my mother had been urgently required by a neighbor, so she left me in charge of ironing the clothes she was forced to interrupt. Soon my sister arrived accompanied as always by a friend. I informed her out loud that our mother had left, she acknowledged receipt of the notice and went to her room. But her friend did not follow her: intrigued by that masculine voice, she followed its trail until she found me in the room where I was ironing shirts. Since I was on my back and focused on my task, I did not notice her presence until she greeted me with a "hello". I turned a little startled and saw her standing there, watching me. I barely had time to react because my sister immediately came to the rescue of her friend. In general, I did not like my sister's friends, but this one was different. Not only did I like her, but I felt as if a spring had jumped in my memory. In a word: I felt a surprising familiarity towards her, as if I had found a loved one after a long time. I did not hide it from my family: during dinner, I commented that I really liked my sister's friend, which generated joking reactions like "Go, finally you like some of her friends!", "Miracle!". Here the story is interrupted to retake it ten years later. In all that time, I had not seen Blanca (that's her name) or known about her. I worked at that time as a scriptwriter on Televisión Española. One evening, I came back home by bus when I saw her in the distance through the window. My heart skipped a beat because I recognized it immediately. But I recognized her not as the girl who had briefly passed through my family's home ten years before, but just as I recognized her that afternoon: as someone very dear, for whom I felt a strange familiarity and confidence. It was a little later that I realized that I had experienced that same feeling ten years ago and that she was the same girl. (This experience sparked my interest in the theory of Soul Mates, and when I realized that there was no book that thoroughly traced the origins of this theory, I decided to write that book myself.) It was the hour people left work, the traffic was intense and the bus moved slowly, so I had time to observe her. She had just left the Conciliar Seminary, where the future priests were preparing, and she was chatting animatedly with a friend. I do not know if it was the expression of surprise on my face what made her stop suddenly and turn to stare at me, also with the same expression of surprise. The next day, I asked my sister about her old friend and I found out she was preparing to become a cloistered nun and that this had been her vocation since she was a child. Among other considerations, that made me desist from contacting her. I thought that such an ingrained vocation was too beautiful a thing to be ruined. A year passed. I was visiting my sister's new apartment. She was busy in the kitchen preparing dinner while I took off my coat in the living room. Then an open envelope called my attention on the mail tray; the address was that of a convent of Poor Clares. The next Sunday I took a train and I stood at the door of the convent church with the intention of attending mass. I had arrived an hour in advance, but the door was open and I wanted to take a look. The Church was in gloom and I saw no one; but suddenly I heard a greeting from one of the sides. I turned around and there she was, lighting some candles. She was dressed as a nun, wearing a white novice headdress, but once again I recognized her immediately. My plan was to attend mass with the hope of seeing her, but without her being aware of my presence, so I stepped back and left the church with my heart beating strongly. To reassure myself, I went for a walk among the vineyards that surrounded the convent, and at the time of the mass I returned. This time there were many parishioners gathered in front of the church. I was among the last to enter. I sat on the side, discovering with satisfaction that, as I had foreseen, the nuns were present. They occupied the first two banks, which allowed me to contemplate Blanca without her seeing me. I thought with joy that, as long as I lived, I would not stop attending that mass every Sunday. However, an unforeseen event occurred, which is that Blanca went out to read the first reading of the Gospel. There we were again face to face, our eyes met... My intention to pass unnoticed had been frustrated. However, I did not stop going to my "appointment" every Sunday. But, as the weeks passed, our peculiar relationship based on looks of complicity, was becoming more and more evident. Then one day I received a letter from the mother superior of the convent asking me, for the sake of Blanca, to stop attending mass in that church. Since then, more than twenty years have passed and I have not seen her again. But seven years ago I suddenly felt the urge to make inquiries, and I learned that, along with the other nuns in the convent among vineyards, Blanca had been moved to another Spanish province, to a centennial monastery in need of young nuns to relieve the old ones who occupied it. I applied for vacations and again took a train, this time with a farther destination. I was again in front of the church of that centennial convent. Again I opened the door slowly ... but suddenly the emotion took over me and I was not able to enter. I returned to Barcelona after a few days, sad because I knew I would not see her again, at least in this life. But I remembered that she was always joyful and had a blind faith in the bright future that awaits us all at the end of our pilgrimage on Earth. So I recovered, and now I am joyful, waiting for that luminous future in which I also believe blindly.

[gloriana35]

I am not young, but I doubt I ever heard of some current trend about "Josephite marriages" until I saw this thread. I knew there were cases, some involving saints, where someone essentially was forced into a marriage. I'd heard of others where couples, whose children were grown, sought to enter religious life (though, if they could obtain permission, they'd have to return to each other if one decided not to continue.) 

I cannot know the full scope of how particular individuals might choose to live their lives. However, I think it is not a good idea to assume that people don't embrace "Josephite marriages" because they don't have that degree of holiness and commitment. It is a very odd situation for a marriage - generally unhealthy - and shows a lack of regard for the sacrament of matrimony. I'm not suggesting that, if there are reasons (such as a later disability) which make sexual relations impossible, that the couple are no longer married. But I don't think it is a good idea to think that a marriage becoming "Josephite" would mean the couple had a holiness most cannot embrace. In nearly all cases, married couples should be embracing each other -it is part of the commitment and vocation.

[Anastasia]

On 5/29/2021 at 8:53 PM, gloriana35 said:

It is a very odd situation for a marriage - generally unhealthy - and shows a lack of regard for the sacrament of matrimony.

I could not agree more. I do not know if Roman Catholics are aware of the Eastern Orthodox symbolism of so-called "crowning" of a bride and groom during the ceremony. The crowns signify high honour and an exulted state of a couple yet they also symbolize a martyrdom which is always a part of a true marriage, a martyrdom of a mutual self-sacrifice, of subduing one's will for the sake of the other.