Josephite Marriage

[Sarah147]

[quote name='deusluxmea' timestamp='1294254733' post='2197027']
JoyfulLife,

In addition to a spiritual director, you may wish to discuss your plans/dreams with a trained counselor. Something about your original post raises a red flag. Key to the success of any vocation is a mature, healthy sexuality which, yes, can be expressed as celibacy. However, I'm concerned that sexuality frightens you and vocation discernment is a romantic way of fleeing from adult questions and responsibilities.

Said with love and concern.
[/quote]


I used to have some issues with that, but I can see the beauty in sexual relations and that kind of intimacy. One of the phatmassers had a very graphic discussion with me about it, and seeing it on the spirual level has changed things for me. It's natural, we are created for it, and I have a normal sex drive. Intimacy in general, of giving your heart to someone, is the scary part to me. Love can be scary when we aren't perfected in it.

[organwerke]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294244651' post='2196969']
What you point out is the same as saying, what if a man is tempted to divorce; a Priest tempted to leave the Priesthood; someone tempted to commit adultery; etc.
[/quote]

Again, I think that what you are saying is improper, as the example you are doing. A husband who at the beginning decided to live a Josephite Marriage and then feels the desire to have a child is not like a husband who wants to divorce or to commit adultery, nor like a priest who is tempted to leave the priesthood.
Also, a husband or a wife that desires to have a child within the marriage can never be seen as a person who is tempted of sin.
A husband who have sex with his wife and who becomes father does not committs any sin, whatever personal vows of marital chastity he may have done, because it is the Sacrament of marriage itself that makes holy the physical union, and that blesses the parental act of procreation.



[quote]This has been misunderstood many times on this thread. Josephite Marriages ARE valid without sex. The Sacrament of Marriage makes it a real marriage, not the sex alone.
As I understand it, he is saying that Josephite Marriages can be dissolved, but he does not say they are invalid.[/quote]

You are only partially right: it is true in fact that marriage is considered valid through the consent. This means that, if both the spouses agree for all their life to have a Josephite Marriage, their marriage is considered valid.
I'd also add that there can be good reasons for having a Josephite Marriage as evil ones: I am sure that you have very good intentions in your heart but there can be people who choose a Josephite Marriage for opportunity: (fo example they do not want to have children and choose not to have sex for this etc.)
But if, as the example I did, EVEN in the "good" Josephite Marriage, at a point a husband, or a wife, wants to have sex and the other doesn't, and the person who wants to have sex asks for a declaration of invalidity while the other person is opposing, the declaration of invalidity is authomatic, because, as you say, the consent to live a chaste marriage must be from both person, and, if one at a point does not agree anymore, it is the other one that has to be open to the lecit desires of the partner, as the duties of the sacrament require.

Edited January 5, 2011 by organwerke

[Sarah147]

Yes, I can see your point. Comparing it to sinning is not quite the right comparison.

A Josephite Marriage is a specific vocation, different from a sexual marriage, and it shouldn't turn into a sexual one if properly discerned from the start.

[Sarah147]

Here is a married couple in a Josephite Marriage[url="http://www.jimandchristygootee.com/josephite_marriage.htm"]
[/url][url="http://www.jimandchristygootee.com/josephite_marriage.htm"]http://www.jimandchr...te_marriage.htm[/url]



[url="http://catholic.nowealthbutlife.com/valid-consummated/"]http://catholic.nowealthbutlife.com/valid-consummated/[/url]

Edited January 5, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[regina_coeli]

While I admire that they have been together 25 years, I find it curious that there are no children mentioned ( though perhaps they were not blessed with children) and that the final line of the article was a fund raiser for a trip to Disney World. I have much more admiration for married couples who abstain for health related reasons, or because they are separated by work or military commitments, or because of NFP.

Perhaps I am too cynical!

[Sarah147]

St. Therese's parents tried to enter religious orders when they were single. When marriage turned out to be their callings, they tried a Josephite Marriage for 10 months, and eventually turned to a regular marriage according to someone on this thread. I'm not sure if it's correct, but I read that they had sexual relations only when trying to have a child, and remained non-sexual the rest of the time.

[Cherie]

I am just adding my two cents, which are solely my opinion on the matter.

JoyfulLife firstly let me commend you for your honesty and courage in bringing this up. It's a good question, and I for one am glad you asked about it. Realize that Catholic marriage is something many people are very passionate about, so try not to take any of the more "forceful" replies too personally. The question of a Josephite Marriage is certainly a legitimate question that obviously interests many people, since there have already been many replies about it!

To me personally, I don't believe that a Josephite Marriage is a specific "calling" in the sense that one has a calling to be a religious or a priest, etc. I think it belongs to people with a [i]very, very [/i]specific set of circumstances and under firm guidance from an experienced spiritual director. Why? Because the marriage covenant, in the usual way of living it out according to God's will, requires consummation of that marriage in which the couple share a unitive bond that is open to new life. A Josephite Marriage is extremely, extremely rare. And to me, I don't believe it has much relevance in today's society anymore. Some are arguing that a Josephite Marriage isn't valid - that's not really the case. A Josephite Marriage is a very specific circumstance - the marriage is valid, but not [i]indissoluble.[/i] Should the couple separate, their marriage could be annulled. I think that's what Fr. Gantley was trying to get at in his response to the questioner on EWTN's website.

I understand that some people feel called to enter into a Josephite Marriage for whatever reason - this was not all that uncommon amongst devout Catholic couples in days of yore. A more modern example comes from St. Therese's own parents, who began their marriage with a sort of "Josephite Marriage" understanding, although it was not a Josephite Marriage in itself. However, just as a priest advised St. Therese's parents to raise up children to be Saints for the honor and glory of God, I think it's much more important in today's society for married couples to represent to the world what it means to be a faithful, devout Catholics who understand God's gift of the human body and sexuality, and do their best to be open to life and raise their children for God's honor and glory. There are MANY, many beautiful manifestations of what it means to be celibate for the Kingdom of God in today's world - priesthood, religious life, consecrated virginity. I think [i]that[/i] is the normal way in which a calling to be celibate is lived out.

To me, I don't think a Josephite Marriage is something as much [i]actively discerned [/i]as it is [i]received [/i]-- meaning, it's more something that falls into your lap than something you'd go out and seek.

Just my two cents, anyway

[organwerke]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1294241446' post='2196957']
good post.



Married for a little over a year now. It is funny, back when I was discerning religious life, I also read about Josephite marriages, wondering if they could work these days, and I also thought I was not cut out to be a parent in any way, shape, or form. My, how the Lord can change our hearts!

To me, marriage is about receiving the gift of my husband's love and reciprocating it in a manner which will help him get to heaven. My goal as a wife is to help my husband achieve eternal salvation - that is my most important job, so to speak. The central act of marriage, the marital act, is ordered toward the unity of the spouses (as a foretaste of eternal unity with God) and the procreation of children. The marital act does so much more than I could have understood before in helping me become one with my husband emotionally and spiritually. Regarding my own personal spiritual life, as soon as we got married, we both had to meet on a common ground so that we could begin to move forward again, but this time, together as a couple (hope that makes sense!). Also, my husband, because of our marriage, is much more than a simple companion with whom I live and pray, and he is much more to me than that by virtue of the marital act. He helps me see the beauty of God's love. For us, if we were living a Josephite marriage, I do not feel like we would be open to God's will, and, therefore, we would not be on our way to heaven - we'd be headed in the other direction. There are no circumstances requiring my and my spouse to live a Josephite marriage, so we will continue to live out our vows, being open to God's will in our lives and hearts.

Yes, St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary had a successful marriage without the marital act, but that was so that they could be the parents of the Son of God.
[/quote]

Thank you for your beautiful post: it is really lovely! I wsh you the best and all the graces of God in your blessed Marriage!

[Cherie]

I would also add to my reply an echo of what Fr. Gantley said: [quote]I am not sure historically, but these "spiritual" marriages that you are describing have no current canonical basis or liturgical ceremony in the present liturgy and law of the Church.[/quote]

The fact that they have no current canonical status is a basis for why I personally don't believe they are as relevant in today's society as they may have been in the past.

[vee]

Time to start dating then huh??? I loved dating and wanted to get married but before I could get hitched God swept me off my feet. It amuses me though the similarities Ive experienced in meeting a young man's parents and family, and meeting religious Communities... aaah good times hahaha! Just remember that wherever you are called you will have INLAWS of some sort! And while you may not have children you may very well have elderly in laws to take care of at some point

[Sarah147]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1294259604' post='2197066']
Time to start dating then huh??? I loved dating and wanted to get married but before I could get hitched God swept me off my feet. It amuses me though the similarities Ive experienced in meeting a young man's parents and family, and meeting religious Communities... aaah good times hahaha! Just remember that wherever you are called you will have INLAWS of some sort! And while you may not have children you may very well have elderly in laws to take care of at some point
[/quote]


Oh boy, I'm not dating. LOL

When the time is right, I will be looking at religious orders again. I already am reading up on some, but visiting isn't in my near future.

As some have said, it seems like a Josephite partner is more of something that would come into my life, than something I could go out and discern and date.

Cherie, thank you for the wonderful post.

Edited January 5, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[vee]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294258059' post='2197057']
St. Therese's parents tried to enter religious orders when they were single. When marriage turned out to be their callings, they tried a Josephite Marriage for 10 months, and eventually turned to a regular marriage according to someone on this thread. I'm not sure if it's correct,[b] but I read that they had sexual relations only when trying to have a child, and remained non-sexual the rest of the time.[/b]
[/quote]

Ok, Louis and Zellie wed in 1858 and while they didnt have relations for almost the first year a simple look at the birth dates of their children indicate that.... well you can see for yourself and infer the results.

[list][*][b]Marie-Louise[/b] (22 February 1860 – 19 January 1940), as a nun, Sister Marie of the Sacred Heart, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelite"]Carmelite[/url] at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisieux"]Lisieux[/url].[*][b]Marie-Pauline[/b] (September 7, 1861 – July 28, 1951), as a nun, Mother Agnès of Jesus, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelite"]Carmelite[/url] at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisieux"]Lisieux[/url].[*][b]Marie-Léonie[/b] (June 3, 1863 – June 16, 1941), as a nun, Sister Françoise-Thérèse, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visitandine"]Visitandine[/url] at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen"]Caen[/url].[*][b]Marie-Hélène[/b] (October 3, 1864 – February 22, 1870)[*][b]Marie-Joseph[/b] (September 20, 1866 – February 14, 1867)[*][b]Marie Jean-Baptiste[/b] (December 19, 1867 – August 24, 1868)[*][b]Marie-Céline[/b] (April 28, 1869 – 25 February 1959), as a nun, Sister Geneviève of the Holy Face, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelite"]Carmelite[/url] at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisieux"]Lisieux[/url].[*][b]Marie-Mélanie Thérèse[/b] (August 16, 1870 – October 8, 1870)[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_de_Lisieux"]Marie-Françoise-Thérèse[/url][/b] (January 2, 1873 – September 30, 1897[/list]Zellie died in 1877 aged 45 of breast cancer.

[regina_coeli]

[b][i]I'm not sure if it's correct, but I read that they had sexual relations only when trying to have a child, and remained non-sexual the rest of the time.
[/i][/b]

The Martins were part of a repressive French culture during the Victorian era, and may have had lack of information about sexuality and religious scruples as a factor when they married. Given the number and timing of children in the relatively short period of their marriage, I suspect that the very wise couseling of their priest helped them to realize the full meaning of marriage!


concurrent posts-- Thanks vee8!

Edited January 5, 2011 by regina_coeli

[MithLuin]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294258059' post='2197057']
St. Therese's parents tried to enter religious orders when they were single. When marriage turned out to be their callings, they tried a Josephite Marriage for 10 months, and eventually turned to a regular marriage according to someone on this thread. I'm not sure if it's correct, but I read that they had sexual relations only when trying to have a child, and remained non-sexual the rest of the time.
[/quote]

I wonder who would know that? Most couples don't discuss their sexual practices with the world at large.

Also, as has been pointed out above, Therese was one of 5...who lived. There were 4 other babies in the family who didn't make it. There may have been miscarriages, though I don't know that. I'm simply suggesting that they obviously were not making any attempt to avoid having children. If they abstained while she was pregnant (for instance) that is more than I know. Obviously, Therese's mother died young (Therese was not yet 5), so Zelie was not really past her childbearing years yet when she fell ill. They did not have the opportunity to consider living out a celibate married life together in their old age.

At any rate, abstaining for a time within marriage in a mutually-agreed upon way is something the Church has always supported. It can certainly help the couple to reflect and pray and grow spiritually, as well as in authentic love of one another. I just have my doubts when this time of abstinence is applied to the entire marriage. How are you not....roommates? Rather than...spouses?

I also have no desire to ever live alone. I'm 30, and I never have. My advice to a single person who doesn't want to live alone is to work towards buying a house, and then opening up rooms to rent to roommates. You don't have to find random strangers on Craig's List - you can find people through church or Catholic groups and have a nice little household of Catholic people.


(And just a vocab comment - we're all called to live chastely, according to our state in life. So for a married person, living chastely means....or rather, includes....normal marital relations with one's spouse. Celibacy is not the same thing as chastity.)

[linnie]

Its been discussed previously that people often have an idealized vision of religious life. Al members of the community are holy, gentle, always self-sacrificing, and life is perfect. Many members of this forums have tried to explain that although community life is wonderful it is also full of challenges, heartbreaks, and joy.

People often have the same idealized vision of married life...."and they lived happily ever after". Not so, folks. Married life is also tough and is also full of challenges, heartbreaks, and joys. Sex is part of it and it is also full of challenges, heartbreaks, and joys. As someone stated, if you want a roommate then get a roommate. If you want a marriage partner for this wonderful journey through life, then that will include ALL of the marriage contract...including sex. I really don't think its realistic to expect a spouse to be everything except your sexual companion. That is just too big a part of marriage. And I don't think it is part of God's plan to married couples to deny this part of marriage. After all he did make us sexual beings and he made us man and woman. I know, Mary and Joseph did not have sexual relations. But really, I don't think any of us can compare ourselves to this Holy couple, they are rather unique

Sex is not dirty, is not something to be ashamed of (within marriage) and does not mean that we cannot live holy and Christ-centered lives. Of course we can! The closeness that comes from fully sharing with our spouse can have a huge impact on our ability to share ourselves more fully with God and with his entire people.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Sorry if I don't make sense, I haven't had much sleep.

blessings to all of you, linnie