TeresaBenedicta Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='Shana' timestamp='1294194421' post='2196785'] I really don't think that living with a man would be the best support for living a life of virginity, but would be a stumbling block. [b]Also, wouldn't having such an intimate, particular relationship with another person be unconducive to developing spiritual virginity in the sense of being a temptation to focus your affections on one particular person?[/b] [/quote] I think this, here, is key. The call of a celibate is to allow our craving for human relationships to be satiatied most profoundly in our relationship with the Lord Jesus. In the hear there is room for God, no single human affection to crowd God out, living and loving for God principally and others for his sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 True, but it is a marriage and not religious life. So there is to be more intimacy than religious life. My only question would be if sexual temptations would ever come up. I wouldn't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) I'm sorry, but a Josephite marriage is probably not possible these days for the following reasons: 1. Valid marriage requires the giving of one's sexual powers to the other person. Marriage requires the relinquishing of control of those powers to the other. Should the other spouse ever decide he/she wants to consummate the marriage, one is obliged to do so unless it is life threatening (presuming this is the reason for abstinence). A spouse can break a private agreement to live as brother and sister at any moment because the sacrament trumps any agreements not to have the conjugal relationship. 2. If one goes into a marriage intending NEVER to allow it to be consummated even if the other spouse should request it, then one enters into not only a sham, invalid marriage, but presumably also enters a state of a proximate occasion of sin (because if you know you're in an invalid marriage and you are living in the same quarters... nature tends towards a certain direction, which in one's case, would be fornication). 3. If one has a medical condition that precludes consummation, it is unjust to expect the other intended spouse to live in a continent manner. The physical signs of affection ought to be present in a marriage and they naturally lead towards... consummation. If the intended spouse wants to live in continent manner, then he/she should live singly alone so as not to be tempted towards marriage's consummation. Edited January 5, 2011 by abrideofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlesister Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Quite some time ago, I was familiar with one couple in a Josephite marriage. In their situation the marriage was not and could not be regularized, but they had been together in a stable relationship for several years, and they had children. For the sake of the family, they were permitted to maintain a Josephite marriage and still receive the sacraments.Quite some time ago, I was familiar with one couple in a Josephite marriage. In their situation the marriage was not and could not be regularized, but they had been together in a stable relationship for several years, and they had children. For the sake of the family, they were permitted to maintain a Josephite marriage and still receive the sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlesister Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sorry about the duplication above. Don't know how it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organwerke Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294185267' post='2196695'] [i]organwerke: "So, again, ask yourself: what would I do if, in my Josephite Marriage, at a point my husband would like to have a child?"[/i] That could happen to a Priest, brother, etc. It takes much spiritual growth and maturity in that man to choose his calling. And much discernment before choosing. [/quote] This is not a proper example because as you say in post 26# it is a marriage and not religious life. If your husband wants to have a child it is different from a Priest or a brother who wants to have a child. A priest, a brother or any other person is different from YOUR husband: even in a Josephite Marriage you can't oblige your husband to be chaste forever and not to have a child, if at a point he feels this desire. I think you should take it into consideration because it could be a very possible situation. [quote] Anywho... back to original post, please. [/quote] Sorry if I was a bit annoying, but frankly I don't think I didn't discuss your first post. It is obvious that only you and your SD know all thye details of your situation, your desires etc. But I was speaking in general about Josephite Marriage, according to what you said in your first post. Maybe, I think it would be nice to hear also the opinions of the married catholic members here on this matter! Edited January 5, 2011 by organwerke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1294198007' post='2196798'] I'm sorry, but a Josephite marriage is probably not possible these days for the following reasons: 1. Valid marriage requires the giving of one's sexual powers to the other person. Marriage requires the relinquishing of control of those powers to the other. Should the other spouse ever decide he/she wants to consummate the marriage, one is obliged to do so unless it is life threatening (presuming this is the reason for abstinence). A spouse can break a private agreement to live as brother and sister at any moment because the sacrament trumps any agreements not to have the conjugal relationship. 2. If one goes into a marriage intending NEVER to allow it to be consummated even if the other spouse should request it, then one enters into not only a sham, invalid marriage, but presumably also enters a state of a proximate occasion of sin (because if you know you're in an invalid marriage and you are living in the same quarters... nature tends towards a certain direction, which in one's case, would be fornication). 3. If one has a medical condition that precludes consummation, it is unjust to expect the other intended spouse to live in a continent manner. The physical signs of affection ought to be present in a marriage and they naturally lead towards... consummation. If the intended spouse wants to live in continent manner, then he/she should live singly alone so as not to be tempted towards marriage's consummation. [/quote] good post. [quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1294236308' post='2196934'] Maybe, I think it would be nice to hear also the opinions of the married catholic members here on this matter! [/quote] Married for a little over a year now. It is funny, back when I was discerning religious life, I also read about Josephite marriages, wondering if they could work these days, and I also thought I was not cut out to be a parent in any way, shape, or form. My, how the Lord can change our hearts! To me, marriage is about receiving the gift of my husband's love and reciprocating it in a manner which will help him get to heaven. My goal as a wife is to help my husband achieve eternal salvation - that is my most important job, so to speak. The central act of marriage, the marital act, is ordered toward the unity of the spouses (as a foretaste of eternal unity with God) and the procreation of children. The marital act does so much more than I could have understood before in helping me become one with my husband emotionally and spiritually. Regarding my own personal spiritual life, as soon as we got married, we both had to meet on a common ground so that we could begin to move forward again, but this time, together as a couple (hope that makes sense!). Also, my husband, because of our marriage, is much more than a simple companion with whom I live and pray, and he is much more to me than that by virtue of the marital act. He helps me see the beauty of God's love. For us, if we were living a Josephite marriage, I do not feel like we would be open to God's will, and, therefore, we would not be on our way to heaven - we'd be headed in the other direction. There are no circumstances requiring my and my spouse to live a Josephite marriage, so we will continue to live out our vows, being open to God's will in our lives and hearts. Yes, St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary had a successful marriage without the marital act, but that was so that they could be the parents of the Son of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holly.o Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 JoyfulLife, God bless you for having the courage to post something so near to your heart! Two thoughts: 1. This would seem to be like something you would discern after having found a person with a similar mind, and not something you would go looking for before knowing that person. You might be setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment looking for a man with these desires - it would be a very, very rare thing, and I would worry that your heart might end up getting hurt by someone who doesn't understand. I echo what someone said about relying on your spiritual director's help regarding this. 2. [url="http://rosariansofthepoorchrist.blogspot.com/"]The Rosarians of the Poor Christ[/url] are a proposed community that might be along the lines of what you're looking for in a community. I don't know where they stand with being formed. Also, take a look at the Madonna House apostolate. Pax! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1294198007' post='2196798'] I'm sorry, but a Josephite marriage is probably not possible these days for the following reasons: 1. Valid marriage requires the giving of one's sexual powers to the other person. Marriage requires the relinquishing of control of those powers to the other. Should the other spouse ever decide he/she wants to consummate the marriage, one is obliged to do so unless it is life threatening (presuming this is the reason for abstinence). A spouse can break a private agreement to live as brother and sister at any moment because the sacrament trumps any agreements not to have the conjugal relationship. 2. If one goes into a marriage intending NEVER to allow it to be consummated even if the other spouse should request it, then one enters into not only a sham, invalid marriage, but presumably also enters a state of a proximate occasion of sin (because if you know you're in an invalid marriage and you are living in the same quarters... nature tends towards a certain direction, which in one's case, would be fornication). 3. If one has a medical condition that precludes consummation, it is unjust to expect the other intended spouse to live in a continent manner. The physical signs of affection ought to be present in a marriage and they naturally lead towards... consummation. If the intended spouse wants to live in continent manner, then he/she should live singly alone so as not to be tempted towards marriage's consummation. [/quote] [quote] [b]Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL EWTN[/b] Consent makes marriage. Once two people give consent to marriage (and it is [b]expressed in a legitimate ceremony), then the marriage bond is formed[/b]. If the two are baptized, then it is a valid sacramental marriage. Consummation of the marriage through an act of sexual intimacy adds an extra firmness to the marriage bond and makes it completely indissoluble. A marriage that was contracted with legitimate consent but was never consummated can be dissolved [u][color="#810081"][url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=506682&Pg=Forum9&Pgnu=10&recnu=232"]http://www.ewtn.com/...nu=10&recnu=232[/url][/color][/u][/quote] [quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1294236308' post='2196934'] This is not a proper example because as you say in post 26# it is a marriage and not religious life. If your husband wants to have a child it is different from a Priest or a brother who wants to have a child. A priest, a brother or any other person is different from YOUR husband: even in a Josephite Marriage you can't oblige your husband to be chaste forever and not to have a child, if at a point he feels this desire. I think you should take it into consideration because it could be a very possible situation. [/quote] I say is is the same as a Priest or brother in that it is a chosen celibate calling. A man discerns if he is called to live out celibacy in a marriage (Josephite), and if he is called, he would have the grace to live it out. What I was saying about it happening to a Priest or brother, is that they get temptations at times, too, and it doesn't mean they don't have the calling nor that they will abandon their calling. Priests surely see the beauty of marriage and having children, and it is a sacrifice, as we are naturally inclined to that. What you point out is the same as saying, what if a man is tempted to divorce; a Priest tempted to leave the Priesthood; someone tempted to commit adultery; etc. Anyone can fall. I'm talking about Josephite Marriages as being a CALLING. Not just "avoidance of kids" or something; it has a higher purpose, firm grounding; a man or woman solid in discerning the Religious Life, or in living it out, is the same as for a Josephite, as in they have the calling, they are driven by grace, the higher calling is everything to them, they choose to live that way just as Catholics choose remain in a state of grace and avoid occassions of sin. It's not a wishy-washy thing that you regret. It takes much spiritual growth and maturity, as well as deep discernment and time to learn your calling in the first place, so someone doesn't later say "boy, I think I'm actually called to..." Edited January 5, 2011 by JoyfulLife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294244651' post='2196969'] I say is is the same as a Priest or brother in that it is a chosen celibate calling. A man discerns if he is called to live out celibacy in a marriage (Josephite), and if he is called, he would have the grace to live it out. What I was saying about it happening to a Priest or brother, is that they get temptations at times, too, and it doesn't mean they don't have the calling nor that they will abandon their calling. Priests surely see the beauty of marriage and having children, and it is a sacrifice, as we are naturally inclined to that. What you point out is the same as saying, what if a man is tempted to divorce; a Priest tempted to leave the Priesthood; someone tempted to commit adultery; etc. Anyone can fall. I'm talking about Josephite Marriages as being a CALLING. Not just "avoidance of kids" or something; it has a higher purpose, firm grounding; a man or woman solid in discerning the Religious Life, or in living it out, is the same as for a Josephite, as in they have the calling, they are driven by grace, the higher calling is everything to them, they choose to live that way just as Catholics choose remain in a state of grace and avoid occassions of sin. It's not a wishy-washy thing that you regret. It takes much spiritual growth and maturity, as well as deep discernment and time to learn your calling in the first place, so someone doesn't later say "boy, I think I'm actually called to..." [/quote] What I am saying is that if you enter marriage with the express intention of never allowing your spouse the right to consummate, then your consent is a lie. Consent makes marriage, and the consent to marry includes the consent to allowing for consummation. I have a friend who may be getting a declaration of invalidity of marriage from the Church due to fraud- the wife has consistently refused to allow their marriage to be consummated and it is obvious that she never gave up her procreative powers to her husband as the vows require. Let me say this again. When you marry, you agree to give over your procreative powers to your spouse. If you do not intend this, this is fraud pure and simple and the marriage is not valid. You cannot enter into a real marriage with the idea that you can perpetually forbid your spouse to consummate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmelite15 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Ok well I didnt really want to post but ok here it is... Well just as you have to be ready for religious life heart and soul I mean the same with this I mean how are you going to find this man I mean sure God will send Him to you but Look now a days men and Catholic men want to have familys and you know what I mean so I mean ask your SD about it dont ask us becasue we are no Nuns and Priests. Men who want to be Married think of having a famil that is why there is a difference between being Married and being a Nun, Sure St. thereses Mom and Dad tryed to do it but look thay went on to have Saints...Ok well I didnt really want to post but ok here it is... Well just as you have to be ready for religious life heart and soul I mean the same with this I mean how are you going to find this man I mean sure God will send Him to you but Look now a days men and Catholic men want to have familys and you know what I mean so I mean ask your SD about it dont ask us becasue we are no Nuns and Priests. Men who want to be Married think of having a famil that is why there is a difference between being Married and being a Nun, Sure St. thereses Mom and Dad tryed to do it but look thay went on to have Saints... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1294247034' post='2196980'] What I am saying is that if you enter marriage with the express intention of never allowing your spouse the right to consummate, then your consent is a lie. Consent makes marriage, and the consent to marry includes the consent to allowing for consummation. I have a friend who may be getting a declaration of invalidity of marriage from the Church due to fraud- the wife has consistently refused to allow their marriage to be consummated and it is obvious that she never gave up her procreative powers to her husband as the vows require. Let me say this again. When you marry, you agree to give over your procreative powers to your spouse. If you do not intend this, this is fraud pure and simple and the marriage is not valid. You cannot enter into a real marriage with the idea that you can perpetually forbid your spouse to consummate. [/quote] Rev. Gantley makes it clear that you can have a valid marriage if predecided it is a Josephite Marriage. Other situations impede this, such as impotence, etc. You have to have the calling and prediscuss it with your Priest. This has been misunderstood many times on this thread. Josephite Marriages ARE valid without sex. The Sacrament of Marriage makes it a real marriage, not the sex alone. [quote] [size="3"][b]"Josephite" Marriages Question from Michael on 6/19/2007:[/b][/size] [size="3"]Fr. Gantley, Thank you for your ministry. I have read various marriages that have taken place in the Latin Church that have not been consumated for spiritual reasons, these were termed "spiritual marriages" or "Josephite marriages". Are these marriages canonical, are they considered equal to sacramental marriages? You mentioned that an impotent person could not be sacramentally married, could he/she be married "spiritually"? Also, what form (Liturgy, Rites, etc) does this type of marriage take? I have read that St. Edward the Confessor was in this kind of marriage, as were the parents of St. Thérèse de Lisieux (initially). [/size] [size="3"][b]Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 6/20/2007:[/b] [/size][size="3"]Some of your question should be submitted to the history forum. [b]Consent makes marriage. Once two people give consent to marriage (and it is expressed in a legitimate ceremony), then the marriage bond is formed. If the two are baptized, then it is a valid sacramental marriage.[/b] Consummation of the marriage through an act of sexual intimacy adds an extra firmness to the marriage bond and makes it completely indissoluble. A marriage that was contracted with legitimate consent but was never consummated can be dissolved. I am not sure historically, but these "spiritual" marriages that you are descibing have no current canonical basis or liturgical ceremony in the present liturgy and law of the Church. An impotent person is impeded from marriage. It is not the same as when a couple contracts marriage and then chooses not consummate for whatever reason. Impotent persons who wish to have a non-sexual relationship with another person can do so. It is called friendship.[/size] [size="2"]COPYRIGHT 2011[/size] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=506682&Pg=Forum9&Pgnu=10&recnu=232"]http://www.ewtn.com/...nu=10&recnu=232[/url] [/quote] As I understand it, he is saying that Josephite Marriages can be dissolved, but he does not say they are invalid. Edited January 5, 2011 by JoyfulLife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1294241446' post='2196957'] good post. [Snipped for brevity] Married for a little over a year now. It is funny, back when I was discerning religious life, I also read about Josephite marriages, wondering if they could work these days, and I also thought I was not cut out to be a parent in any way, shape, or form. My, how the Lord can change our hearts! [/quote] I'm not a Christian, let alone a Catholic, but I AM married, and have been so for 32 years. I've been really reluctant to enter this discussion because the tradition to which I belong exalts married life as being a positive commandment; indeed, the first commandment in the Old Testament is to "be fruitful and multiply", and it is explicitly stated that the desire of a wife will be to her husband "and they will be one flesh". There is no positive value, in my faith, in renouncing sex within the established parameters of marriage, so I am perhaps not the best person to comment on a tradition which elevates abstinence from sex to a virtue. But what interests me about this concept of "Josephite marriage" is that it seems to me to be a kind of [i]menage a trois[/i] in that two parties are obsessed with a third -- that God is made into a kind of marital partner to whom both turn in preference to each other. I think, and I say this very gently and respectfully, Joyful Life, that the fact this idea attracts you is because you have not yet met your life's mate, your "destined one". And if that "destined one" should be God, there's not going to be room for another. I hear you talking from lack of sexual experience, or indeed deep love for a particular man. I never thought of myself as having "just" children, in the abstract, but when I married, at least part of the reason I did was that I most definitely wanted [i]my husband's[/i] children [the strength of that biological urge is unbelievable]. In reading the thread on older vocations, I am surprised that those who find themselves called after having a wide experience of life seem to find formation more difficult; I would think it would be actually easier, having seen and experienced the world, they know what they are undertaking, rather than a youngster who really is rather starry-eyed about it all. But I might be wrong, I don't know. Can you explain more fully why you think that life with a single, celibate partner would be preferable to joining a community composed of like-minded people? I am genuinely curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I prefer religious life. My original point was that if religious life didn't work out for whatever reason -- they have a problem with my health history, personal issues, they don't see a calling, etc. -- then I might discern a Josephite Marriage, as I don't feel the single life is for me. This is a thought; I've brought it to the board for further discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deusluxmea Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) JoyfulLife, In addition to a spiritual director, you may wish to discuss your plans/dreams with a trained counselor. Something about your original post raises a red flag. Key to the success of any vocation is a mature, healthy sexuality which, yes, can be expressed as celibacy. However, I'm concerned that sexuality frightens you and vocation discernment is a romantic way of fleeing from adult questions and responsibilities. Said with love and concern. Edited January 5, 2011 by deusluxmea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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