Josephite Marriage

[Sarah147]

Hello,

I've wanted to post this for a long, long time. This has got to be the hardest thing for me to post.

I'm still discerning the Religious Life. Visiting places again is on hold, as I've discerned I need to spend time on me and growing on all levels before I'd be mature enough and healthy for the life. I'm sure God wants me where I am right now, as He is leading me in the right direction, and I am growing and learning. Moving out on my own, growing solid in the faith, working on my education, solid friendships, Church involvement, working on my health, and visiting orders have all been the big steps for me, which I believe are preparing me for what God may be calling me to in the future.

There is some room for doubt in that superiors or I may eventually discern I am not called to the Religious Life, and my past health may be one factor. So I do think about what else I may end up discerning down the road.

We've been talking on the phorum about living near the Hanceville, AL shrine or Ave Maria, FL. I've loosely thought about maybe living there way down the road, for the Catholic community in my life. That's everything to me. That's so much a part of my life now, in having Catholic friends or would be in living in community in a convent. Not just "Catholic," but genuinely loving, spiritual people with solid theology.

I've discerned with my spiritual director that raising children would not be for me. It is such a holy, big job and I do think children are beautiful, and I wish the option were open for future discernment, but it's not for me. I don't want to go into detail about it.

Because Catholic community, and having strong, loving relationships is so important to me, which is especially in living with Catholic family, friends, convent, or marriage. And because I feel I must have it, living alone does not seem to be my future calling.

So I've been hearing about JOSEPHITE MARRIAGES. For me, that would be a marriage lived in virginity, with a spouse. It would take discerning if I had the grace for that. It would seem beautiful to live it with a spouse as Third Order Religious, or both working for the Church somehow. And living in a strong Catholic Community like Hanceville, AL or Ave Maria, FL. The hard part would not be the virginity for me, but in finding the super spirtiual, right person, especially one that spent time living as a Religious. I think it's so rare out there for anyone to want to live a higher calling for God, in chastity and virginity, but if God willed it for me, maybe He works that out.

Usually, married couples wait until they are older and the kids are grown, and they are holy enough to live out virginity, do they take on the Josephite vow. But I'm think there are couples out there that have married in the vow from the start. I doubt it was talked about much, as I'm sure many wouldn't understand it.

I'm wondering if anyone else here has heard about Josephite Marriages and what they know. Also about Hanceville/Ave Maria, and other things discussed. Also, any thoughts about my post?

God bless you.

Edited January 4, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[organwerke]

Hope you don't feel offended but I have doubts on Josephite Marriage.
It can exists, but, in my opinion, only in very particular situations.
I remember the case of the parents of Saint Therese of Lisieux: they decided at the beginning to live a chaste marriage, but a wise SD suggested to them to put a end to this kind of life and we know the result of that good advice...
I also know that "ratus non consummatus" is a condition for a marriage to be considered null.
Also, the Church wants the christian spouses to be open to life and to accept all the children God wants to send to them.
I'm not questioning your personal attitude or your considerations about your not being able to raise/educate children, I'm simply saying that I believe that a chaste marriage is to be seen as an exception, a particular situation, and not the norm for christian marriages...
Of course I believe it can be a vocation for those FEW people who are called to it.

And yes, I think it is very important, as you say, to find the perfect person who shares your ideal...
as not only this is not a vocation for all, but, also, you can harm very much your partner with the request of not having sex.
Sex is not only a way to find pleasure, on the contrary, it is mainly a way to demonstrate your love for your spouse, and your love for God in being able to bring the life in your womb.
While I am writing, two unfortunate cases come to my mind (which I personlly know).
The first one is a couple of spouses in which the woman loves her husband (so she tells) but doesn't want to have sex with him, nor she wants to have children.
I know he suffers from this, especially because he likes children very much and he would like very much to become father, but, since he too loves her, he accepts her condistions. I don't find this is a fair situation nor a really happy marriage.
The other one is a friend of mine that has recently divorced because her husband didn't want to have sex with her.
She isn't to be considered a superficial person, because it is really normal that a woman doesn't perceive she is loved if her husband refuses to have sex with her.
I hope I didn't hijack your thread, but I simply wanted to suggest to consider very carefully this very special vocation you feel drawn to.

Edited January 4, 2011 by organwerke

[krissylou]

I'm not sure how "acceptable" it is to enter into any sort of marriage if you've decided flat-out that raising children is not for you.

I THINK and I could be wrong, but I think the deal with a Josephite marriage is that either partner can say "enough of this, back to a regular marriage" at any time and that has to be okay.

I'm pretty sure I've heard that before. I could be wrong.

Looking at the Whitesville Passionist blog (and I feel kind of like a stalker, but, geez, they're the ones putting up the blog!) I'm fascinated with their "oblate affiliate." She sure looks to live an essentially nun-like life, but joined the cloister a few years ago, in middle age, wears a simple black dress (similar to what the postulants wear) instead of a habit, and instead of taking vows she commits for a year at a time.

She'd been a more typical oblate for many years and wanted a closer connection with the community. I will bet a cookie that she was considering entering as a Sister -- that option wasn't open to her for whatever reason (age, probably) but the Constitutions allow for two live-in oblates per monastery so they decided to try that. She's been there a couple years now, so it seems to be working out to everyone's satisfaction.

I'm fascinated by that. And sometimes think of my life as maybe developing along a somewhat similar path -- except with an active community where I'd still go home to sleep in my own bed at the end of the day. I'm looking around at various oblate/Tertiary/associate sorts of relationships and as the journey progresses I find that I am especially interested in communities where a convent is close to my house -- as in, within walking distance -- so I can "pop over" on a regular basis, join for morning prayer, etc. As I live in a heavily Catholic area, this very constricted geographic range still leaves me three options (plus a Poor Clares monastery, and I like to hang out in their chapel, but due to enclosure it's difficult if not impossible to form relationships with the community, so I'm glad that they exist but that's not what I'm looking for.)

With the emphasis on the ministry of the laity in Vatican II, and John Paul II's encouragement of various new forms of consecrated life and lay affiliations, there are so many new options out there. Not even to mention things like Catholic Worker or L'Arche that have a lot of similarites to religious orders, but people don't take vows and some people are there for a lifetime but others are there for a season.

But I totally understand your hunger for living your life with a deep, rich faith-based community, although potentially not within a traditional marriage or religious order. I share that. But there are so many options out there these days. It's really fascinating to explore!

[MithLuin]

The confessor of St. Therese's parents urged them to consider the vocation of being parents, so I think they lived a Josephite marriage for less than a year before going on to have a more 'normal' marriage.

I knew a woman whose doctor told her that it would be dangerous for her to have any more children (she was a mother of three). So, rather than go on birth control or get her husband a vasectomy (or try NFP), they opted to live a Josephite marriage (she was a devout Catholic). She shared this with me while we were watching kids on a playground, and while she seemed happy enough with the arrangement, I had to imagine it was difficult. And it did seem a bit strange to me that she would just tell me about it (I taught her son, so we were more acquaintances than friends).

I've also known older couples who sleep in separate beds (or separate rooms, even), but it's not been my experience that these were happy marriages. More like a failed marriage where they just stayed together because they had to. I wouldn't wish that situation on any one.


In general, I am deeply leery of Josephite marriages, but I can see how (in theory) it would work if both people were called to it. Marriage means giving yourself entirely to another person, and I don't think housemates typically do that. You'd have to be very generous and loving to pull off an authentic marriage relationship without a sexual relationship. If one person were very ill, then I could see it, but I admit I'm not comfortable with the idea.

[Sarah147]

Mary and Joseph were the first, so it can be done. I know, I know they are Saints, but still.

They gave of eachother fully, even though it was Josephite. They are Saints, they could only give everything.

They married from the get-go in virginity, so it can happen.

They never consummated with sex, yet their marriage is legit.

It's to be looked at not as an abnormal, strange thing, but a higher calling. It is sacrifise for God. It is a greater giving to God and to spouse because you are giving up something, really for the better. It is a higher calling of chastity and really allows for living it out better. People need to quit staring at sex as THE more important thing out there. It's not even a 24/7 in a Catholic marriage. It can be lived without, just as single people and Religious live without it. God, contemplation, Holiness is THE MORE IMPORTANT.

My focus is more, if it's my calling and there are others out there with the calling... Rather than I have to or something.

Thank you for the replies.



[quote]
There appear to be two forms of the Sacrament of Marriage, one that we could call the ‘ordinary form,’ the other that one might call the ‘extraordinary form’. While both are the same vocation, the second requires a special calling beyond the normal call to the vocation of marriage. The extraordinary form is the type of marriage Joseph and Mary had and is sometimes referred to as a Josephite marriage.

The special charisma of the Josephite marriage is that it is ‘fruitful’ in a different way rather then the generation of natural children — although Joseph and Mary’s unique union had the additional characteristic of being fruitful in both ways. From time to time and for various reasons in history their have been some couples who have felt called to this type of celibate marriage.
. . . .
Well, yes it is unnatural; in fact it is supernatural. Some people give up the natural good of food for the purpose of building a healthier body. Why is it shocking that some couples might choose to give up the natural good of the nuptial act, if by doing so they gain healthier souls? In the end celibates do not give up sex because it is ‘sinful’. That has simply never been the teaching of the church; they give it up because they hope to live a life that points the way to what will come in the next life, to something better and higher. They give testimony to the fact that ‘the time is short’. We are not long in this state or world.
[url="http://catholicexchange.com/2010/08/18/133429/"]http://catholicexchange.com/2010/08/18/133429/[/url]
[/quote]


[quote]
It has been known throughout many cultures as the bond of a man and a woman for reasons of [b]spiritual and emotional intimacy and connection.
[/b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_marriage"][b]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_marriage[/b][/url]
[b][/quote]

[/b]That I seek -- the deep spiritual and emotional intimacy.

Edited January 4, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Sarah147]

[quote]
[b]Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL[/b]



Consent makes marriage. Once two people give consent to marriage (and it is [b]expressed in a legitimate ceremony), then the marriage bond is formed[/b]. If the two are baptized, then it is a valid sacramental marriage. Consummation of the marriage through an act of sexual intimacy adds an extra firmness to the marriage bond and makes it completely indissoluble. A marriage that was contracted with legitimate consent but was never consummated can be dissolved


[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=506682&Pg=Forum9&Pgnu=10&recnu=232"]http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=506682&Pg=Forum9&Pgnu=10&recnu=232
[/url][/quote]

Edited January 4, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[organwerke]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294176230' post='2196645']
Mary and Joseph were the first, so it can be done. I know, I know they are Saints, but still.

They gave of eachother fully, even though it was Josephite. They are Saints, they could only give everything.

They married from the get-go in virginity, so it can happen.

They never consummated with sex, yet their marriage is legit.

It's to be looked at not as an abnormal, strange thing, but a higher calling. It is sacrifise for God. It is a greater giving to God and to spouse because you are giving up something, really for the better. It is a higher calling of chastity and really allows for living it out better. People need to quit staring at sex as THE more important thing out there. It's not even a 24/7 in a Catholic marriage. It can be lived without, just as single people and Religious live without it. God, contemplation, Holiness is THE MORE IMPORTANT.

My focus is more, if it's my calling and there are others out there with the calling... Rather than I have to or something.

Thank you for the replies.








[/b]That I seek -- the deep spiritual and emotional intimacy.
[/quote]

Dear Joyfull life, sorry to say this, but this is that kind of post that really makes me really angry.
I think that a Josephite marriage can exist, and may be a vocation, you rightly say that Joseph and Mary had it, and so it is possible, you rightly say that they were saints, but we can be too, so this too is right.
But when you start saying that "People need to quit staring at sex as THE more important thing out there. It's not even a 24/7 in a Catholic marriage. " as if anyone here had said that sex is the more important thing in a marriage, well, this is what makes me think: "this person has really no idea of who are replying to her, nor what a marriage is".
It is evident that no one has said that sex is the more important thing in a marriage, but I would be good that you considered that for a christian marriage to be open to life is more important that to be completely chaste, and, except from Mary, the ONLY Mother Virgin, a human being can become parent only having sex.
If you think that in a marriage being completely chaste is more important than being parents you are really really wrong.
I'm NOT speaking -please note this- of persons that have health problems, that, for various reasons, can't procreating nor having sex: these are the cases in which I think can be proper and good to live a Josephite Marriage.
I don't want to know the reason for you feel called to this kind of life, but simply want to warn you, because, if a certain point in a Josephite Marriage your partner feels the desire to become a parent, this marriage can be dissolved, and not for his fault, but for yours, if you don't accept to have children (again, I'm speaking of an hypothetical case, and not yours, and, also, nor of cases in which health problems are involved).
If you think that refusing a husband the lecit desire to become a parent for a personal desire to live completely chaste means to have the deep spiritual and emotional intimacy, you are wrong. So, again, ask yourself: what I would do if, in my Josephite Marriage, at a point my husband would like to have a child?

[Sarah147]

In my other post, I meant to say: "God, contemplation, Holiness is MOST IMPORTANT."



[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1294182318' post='2196675']
Jesus did not have brothers and sisters.
The term "brother" and "sister" used in the Bible is not synonymous with our modern term "sibling".
It refers to a cousin or a close friend.
[/quote]

Or bretheren.


A Josephite marriage is valid. Refer to post here:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=110147&view=findpost&p=2196648"][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=110147&view=findpost&p=2196648"]http://www.phatmass....dpost&p=2196648[/url]
[/url]

I'd rather this thread get back to the meat of my original post.

Life in Hanceville and Ave Maria...

Discerning Josephite Marriage...

etc.

Edited January 4, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[organwerke]

Ok, I give up.

I admit that I can't be of help in this thread.

What in fact I can't really understand is why a person can desire to live a marriage that is chaste...

Note: the difficult part for me to understand is not why a person can desire to live chaste, but why a woman who wants to live chastely still wants to live with a man and being married to him. I'm sure there are reasons I don't know or I don't understand.

So, I'll promise that for me it is

[Sarah147]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1294183438' post='2196682']
It is evident that no one has said that sex is the more important thing in a marriage
[/quote]
I was thinking in general how the public, mainly secular, puts so much emphasis on sex as being everything.


[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1294183438' post='2196682']
If you think that in a marriage being completely chaste is more important than being parents you are really really wrong.
[/quote]
Actually, Religious Life, which is a life of chastity/poverty/obediance, is HIGHER than marriage.


[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1294183438' post='2196682']
"So, again, ask yourself: what I would do if, in my Josephite Marriage, at a point my husband would like to have a child?"
[/quote]
That could happen to a Priest, brother, etc. It takes much spiritual growth and maturity in that man to choose his calling. And much discernment before choosing.


Why live such a life? To live out a higher calling for God and in turn helping spouse come closer to God. To live chastity deeply. To grow closer spiritually and emotionally, and focusing on JUST that, not sexual, it leaves more room to grow in the other areas. To me, it is close to living in a convent with community, in chastity, except it's just one person. It's a closer intimacy, it's for growing spiritually and emotionally very close. Sharing yourselves with eachother and helping eachother to Heaven and Holiness. It's beautiful.


Anywho... back to original post, please.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294170193' post='2196606']
I've discerned with my spiritual director that raising children would not be for me. It is such a holy, big job and I do think children are beautiful, and I wish the option were open for future discernment, but it's not for me. I don't want to go into detail about it.
...
So I've been hearing about JOSEPHITE MARRIAGES. For me, that would be a marriage lived in virginity, with a spouse. It would take discerning if I had the grace for that. It would seem beautiful to live it with a spouse as Third Order Religious, or both working for the Church somehow. And living in a strong Catholic Community like Hanceville, AL or Ave Maria, FL. The hard part would not be the virginity for me, but in finding the super spirtiual, right person, especially one that spent time living as a Religious. I think it's so rare out there for anyone to want to live a higher calling for God, in chastity and virginity, but if God willed it for me, maybe He works that out.
[/quote]
JoyfulLife -- my only suggestion is to continue your discernment with your spiritual director. Only you and your s.d. can really discuss the issues at hand (you said that you've discerned that raising children is not for you ... and only you and your s.d. know what the situation is).

Blessings

[Cherie]

I do have opinions about Josephite Marriages, but I will save them for later.

I am not sure where else there has been discussion about living near Hanceville/Ave Maria, but I have some personal experience regarding that so I'd like to share my observations.

I know a LOT of people who have done just that -- moved to one of these "totally Catholic" areas -- because they wanted to live around deeply spiritual people and raise their children in that environment. I commend them for doing so -- they have high ideals and their hearts were definitely in the right place. But I know some of these same families have been deeply disappointed. They expected a sort of "Catholic utopia" where everything was perfectly Catholic, all the families got along in perfect charity, and everyone had perfectly good intentions. Unfortunately, we all have a fallen human nature which means that even Saints have sinned in their lifetimes! So please don't think that a place like Hanceville or Ave Maria is perfect. Yes, even there you will find gossiping, back stabbing, a lack of charity, family feuds, etc. A lot of times there is a sort of "competition" for which family is more Catholic than the Pope, and there can be certain factions among families: do you wear skirts all the time or don't you? Do you wear chapel veils or don't you? Do you have 8 kids or less? etc.

That being said, I know some WONDERFUL, amazing, inspiring families from those exact places that I look to as an example of what I want to model my own family from.

The point in saying all this? Just be careful if you decide to move to an area like that, don't set yourself up for disappointment, and be sure it's God's--not your own--will. Sometimes (though not all the time) God wants us to stay where we are, no matter how depressing or unsatisfying it might be, in order to be a beacon of hope and to set a good example of true, authentic Catholicism for those in the world who desperately need just that.

[Sarah147]

Wow! Excellent post. Thank you so much Cherie for commenting. I really appreciate when you share your thoughts.

Coming from a family outside the Church, and being a late convert myself, I especially feel the need to be in a strong Catholic environment/community. I know what you say about being a beacon, but I don't think I shine much in public. Otherwise with close friends, but anyway.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about Josephite Marriages.

[Shana]

I really don't think that living with a man would be the best support for living a life of virginity, but would be a stumbling block. Also, wouldn't having such an intimate, particular relationship with another person be unconducive to developing spiritual virginity in the sense of being a temptation to focus your affections on one particular person?

[Sarah147]

Maybe, and maybe not. It's definately something to add to discernment.

Edited January 5, 2011 by JoyfulLife