Can Anyone Explain?

[pjrizzo]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Due to the law of non-contradiction (two opposing ideas can not be true at the same time), it is not true that "protestants" and catholics hold to the same source of Truth. The catholics ride two horses, so to speak; the Bible and "church" authority. When those truths contradict one another, where do you go? For me, and Bible believing Christians since and including Christ, the final, clear, authority is the sacred Word of God. 66 love letters to mankind, to reveal necessary for man's salvation.[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Let's use Aristotle's non-contradiction law and apply it to the following truth statements:


[b]Source of Catholic Dogma[/b]: The following [i]De Fide[/i] statements comprise "Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (The Council of Trent, and Vatican II. These positive "articles of faith" have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ.

[b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.





[b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the

[b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the

[b] [/b]Mageserium

[b]Bible- [/b]

[list][list][*]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[*]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[*]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[*]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44;[/list][/list]· Jesus taught His disciples that they were His desig­nated witnesses and spokesmen (Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; John 15:27). As His students, they learned His teachings so that they, in turn, might impart these principles to others. This was even true to the extent that those who believed and obeyed the disci­ples' words would actually be receiving Jesus Christ Himself (Matt. 10:14-15, 40; John 13:20).

· Jesus also promised His disciples the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He would teach them addition­al matters (John 16:12-13), causing them to remember Jesus' words (John 14:26), and revealing to them the future (John 16:13b). Perhaps the key item is that, in all these matters, the Holy Spirit would lead the disciples to truth (John 16:13a).

· Jesus additionally promised that the Holy Spirit would assist His students in their teaching. This twofold promise paved the way for the inspiration of the New Testament.

· As the New Testament writers penned their words, they recognized that they were inspired. They claimed Jesus' twofold promise. The apostles' teachings were based on the foundation that Jesus provided (Eph. 2:20; 2 Pet. 3:2; Heb. 2:3-4). They believed their words were inspired (1 Peter l:12b). This is especially evident in Paul's epistles. They were con­vinced that the Holy Spirit empowered both their teaching and their writing.

· The New Testament writers recognized that Jesus' promise of inspiration also extended to other writers, as well. For instance, I Timothy 5:18 notes two citations, referring to both as Scripture. The first is obviously drawn from Deuteronomy 25:4. Although the second is similar to certain Old Testament texts, it is nowhere quoted. Actually, this saying is the same as that in Luke 10:7 (cf. Matt. 10:10), spoken by Jesus. Comparing a quote from the Law to one found in the teachings of Jesus, and calling them both Scripture, is certainly significant, and for more than one reason. It shows some conviction that the existing canon of inspired texts, consisting only of Old Testament writings, is not the end of the matter. After all, if any writings are considered to be inspired, the words of Jesus should be included! Moreover, Jesus' saying is even placed on a par with the Law itself. Further, New Testament texts by other authors were also recognized.

· Another example is found in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Paul's epistles are placed alongside other Scripture, thereby being given the same status. Additionally, Jude 17-18 seems to cite 2 Peter 3:3 (or a common text) as the words of an apostle.

· Jesus continually refuted the Pharisees by saying, “have you not read?, He refuted the devil himself with Scripture stating three times, “it is written”.





[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- The Catholic Church was founded by the God-[/list] man, Jesus Christ.

[b]Bible[/b]- The one true church is that which is founded on Christ

[b] [/b] himself and is comprised by all who trust Jesus as their

only Lord and Savior. Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20;

1 Cor 3 : 11 ,16; 1 Pet 2:5.



[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of[/list][b] [/b] all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the
whole Catholic Church, by appointing him

and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.

[b]Bible[/b]- “you are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petras,

Peter’s confession of faith,) I will build my church”

Matt 16:18

· Immediately after talking of the foundation of the church, Jesus rebukes Peter saying, “get behind me satan, you are a scandal to me for you mind the things of men…”

· Peter denied Jesus with cursing and swearing. Matt 26:69-75

· Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of faith. Matt 14:22-31

· Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocritical and disobeying the gospel. Gal 2:11

· Peter was married. Matt 8:14

· Peter had no authority of other apostles. All received guidance directly from the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4; Eph 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.

· James was the spokesman at the Jerusalem council (determining church practice) Acts 15.



[b]4.[/b] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.
Mary is the Immaculate Conception.

[b] Bible[/b]- all have sinned and fall short…..Rom 3:23

No one seeks after good, no not one -Ps 14

Death spread to all because all sinned- Rom 5:13

All are conceived in sin- Ps 51:5

I (Mary) rejoice in God [b]my savior- [/b]Luke 1:47

[b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

[b]Bible[/b]- body goes to the ground, spirit goes to heaven or hell-

Eccl 12:7; 1 Cor 15:36.

[b]Catholic[/b]- Mary is Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Jesus in v

salvation

[b]Bible[/b]- Jesus alone is the Savior, redeemer of those who call on His

[b] [/b] Name- Acts 4:12. Mary was a humble woman used of God

she is now dead and can not be communicated with.

Lev 19:21; Deut 18:10-13, Lev 20:27.

God is angered for idolizing the Queen of heaven- Jer 7:18-

21



[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- It is permissible to venerate images of saints; invoke[/list] intercession and to pray for the dead in purgatory.

[b]Bible[/b]- Let no one among you consult the dead. It is detestable-

Deut 18:10-13.

Only one mediator between God and man; Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5

man is destined to die once, then the judgment- Heb 9:27

A time is coming when all in their graves will rise, some to

eternal life, some to eternal punishment- Jn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2

Separation of sheep and goats- Matt 25:32

Great white throne judgment- 20:11





[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- the sacraments of the new covenant are necessary for[/list] the salvation of mankind.

Baptism remits all punishments of sin.

[b]Bible[/b]- we are saved by grace alone, not by works- Eph 2:8-10

If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe….

you will be saved- Rom 10:9.

All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved-

Rom 10:13

Whosoever believes will not perish- Jn 3:16

The righteous shall live by faith- Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17

By works shall no man be justified- Gal 2:16; 3:14

By one sacrifice [b]He has perfected [/b]those who are being

sanctified.



[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- the body and blood of Christ are truly, really, and[/list] Substantially present at the eucharist, during the

sacrifice of the mass.



[b]Bible[/b]- Jesus took bread and wine as symbols. Do this in

remembrance of me- Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24.

He is seated at the right hand of the father in heavenly

places- Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1.

Jesus is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make

intercession for us- Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-29.

Jesus offered once for all time, a sacrifice for sin- Heb 10:9



[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- by the church’s absolution, sins are remitted.[/list][b]Bible[/b]- without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins-

Heb 9:22

The wages of sin is death- 6:23

The soul that sins it shall die- Ex 18:20

Christ himself, through faith in his blood, is the propitiation for

our sins- Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10.





[list][*][b]Catholic[/b]- rites and sacraments to be administered under the office[/list] of the priest.

[b] Bible[/b]- one mediator between God and man, Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5

We (believers) are a royal priesthood- 1 Pet 2:9

He has made us a kingdom of priests to God- Rev 1:6

We can come boldly to the throne of Grace…. Heb 4:16





[/font][/size]

[Brother Adam]

Wrong forum for your copy and paste, you meant the debate table. If you are going to just copy and paste anti-Catholic materials (which of course, get the Catholic faith wrong), why should we bother reading it? We can just copy and paste back at ya'. So, in response:

[img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DdeglHmzL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg[/img]

[homeschoolmom]

Yeah, seriously. We would take you more seriously if you presented ONE idea and we could share thoughts on it... then move on to another idea. I can guarantee you that doc dumping will lead to nothing. You will get frustrated, and more convinced of our "wrongness" than ever before. Seriously, this is not the way to discuss things. (moving this to debate).

[CatherineM]

It might be nice if you would answer questions asked of you in old threads rather than start new ones. There is nothing in Church tradition that contradicts the bible. Tradition came first. Jesus didn't leave us the bible, he left us his church.

[Winchester]

Holy croutons, I have never seen these arguments before. You've convinced me utterly. Amazing that these incredible and completely not asinine or in any way half-witted arguments have not destroyed the Church!

I have one question: Do you have to replace certain buttons on your keyboard fortnightly?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1294106909' post='2196361'] fortnightly?[/quote]
there's a word you don't hear much anymore.

[rachael]

another copy paste?

[Jaime]

another copy paste?

[rachael]

[Lil Red]

[rachael]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/rac13sd/four-loko02.jpg[/IMG]

[Lil Red]

ain't no way i'm copying and pasting that.

[rachael]

scary, isn't it

Edited January 4, 2011 by rachael

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1294100907' post='2196307']
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Due to the law of non-contradiction (two opposing ideas can not be true at the same time), it is not true that "protestants" and catholics hold to the same source of Truth. The catholics ride two horses, so to speak; the Bible and "church" authority. When those truths contradict one another, where do you go? For me, and Bible believing Christians since and including Christ, the final, clear, authority is the sacred Word of God. 66 love letters to mankind, to reveal necessary for man's salvation.[/size][/font]

[/font][/size]
[/quote]
Where do you go - you go to the source- The Church- which precedes the New Testament. The Church was founded at Pentecost, the New Testament came later. The New Testament documents the early Church, therefore it came FROM the Church.

and since you like quotes:


"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, [color="#FF0000"]whether by word, or by our epistle[/color]."
- 2 Thessalonians 2,14


All the protestant and non-denoms hold to many different traditions of men, since they refuse to acknowledge any authority but their own. That is why there are literally hundreds of different groups with vastly different beliefs - from Mormons who claim they get their own planets to Unitarians -all claim to be christian but have no autority. They refuse to ackowledge any central authority as clearly granted by Jesus Christ to the Church.

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my [color="#FF0000"]church[/color], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
- Matthew 16,18

You are free to hold any particular tradition you can think up on your own, but as a Catholic I do follow exactly what Scripture proclaims:


"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is [color="#FF0000"]the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth[/color]."
- 1 Timothy 3,15


Without the Church, you are off the boat of Peter, and simply swimming with the sharks.

[Winchester]

And the sharks are gay.