Eucharistic Adoration

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 22 2004, 08:57 PM'] because your religion claims to have been there does not mean anything.

nothing.

I could claim to be a descendant of the King of Spain...how do you know I'm not?

the word of man means nothing...[url="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/peterpope.html"]here is the history and validity of your PETRINE PAPACY[/url]

anything other than that is merely speculation and rumor.

and as many times as I've said it, I don't interpret the Bible for myself. My Pastor and other elders in the Church teach me...from the Bible. Yeah, we respect tradition, and go back to what the early church founders said, but never use their writings as anything more than that...writings from holy, yes holy, and fallible men. [/quote]
"the word of man means nothing..."

so therefore your pastors words fall in the exact same category.


If the Catholic Church is wrong, then the bible is wrong as well.

[maxk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 22 2004, 06:57 PM'] and as many times as I've said it, I don't interpret the Bible for myself.  My Pastor and other elders in the Church teach me...from the Bible.  Yeah, we respect tradition, and go back to what the early church founders said, but never use their writings as anything more than that...writings from holy, yes holy, and fallible men. [/quote]
What authority do they have? Where does it come from? I think you've probably answered this question before; I just wanted to hear it.

Answer me this:

What would you do if the elders just so happen to contradict each other on a smaller moral issue?

How would you know who is correct on this small issue? Note: God does not contradict Himself and thus there must be a truthful answer for every moral issue. If you say you would go with the pastor, then does that mean that the pastor is always right while the elder's can sometimes go wrong?

Please explain...

God Bless,
maxk

Edited April 23, 2004 by maxk

[God Conquers]

You still didn't answer the question though. What authority do your pastors have to interpret the bible over those who commented on it separately as different scripture, those who assembled it, and those Christians for the next 1200 years?

[the lumberjack]

[quote]What would you do if the elders just so happen to contradict each other on a smaller moral issue?[/quote]

one of the more common ones is drinking...the Bible says to not be drunk to drunkeness, right? so along with that, some say, "Don't drink" some say, "Drink in moderation"

both don't argue with the Bible...one glass of wine is not enough to intoxicate, right?

or are you asking about something bigger than this?

-------------

and GC,

[quote]You still didn't answer the question though. What authority do your pastors have to interpret the bible over those who commented on it separately as different scripture, those who assembled it, and those Christians for the next 1200 years?[/quote]

who ever said they DIDN'T turn to the early church founder's commentaries for guidance and clarification?

as I've said before, A LOT of brothers have put out A LOT of good solid doctrine in their commentaries...from back in the second century, all the way up to recent history. but what they write isn't always ALL right...when weighed against the Bible... not private interpretation, contextual and definitive translations of the Bible give us more than enough proof.

-----------

and cmom,

who says the writers of the bible were catholic? where in the bible does it say they were catholic?

from what I recall, "they were first called CHRISTIANS" in Antioch...

but thats my personal interpretation...

[cmotherofpirl]

Jesus only founded one Church, christian and catholic.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 22 2004, 09:07 PM'] Jesus only founded one Church, christian and catholic. [/quote]
Amen to that Cmom!

[maxk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 22 2004, 08:00 PM'] one of the more common ones is drinking...the Bible says to not be drunk to drunkeness, right? so along with that, some say, "Don't drink" some say, "Drink in moderation"

both don't argue with the Bible...one glass of wine is not enough to intoxicate, right?

or are you asking about something bigger than this?

[/quote]
no no LJ, I'm with you on that one, but I'm talking about something like abortion, contraception, infant baptism, or loss of salvation after "getting saved", etc.

(I guess some of these really aren't 'small' issues, but they are ones that many can be interpreted falsely from the Bible,)

[maxk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 22 2004, 08:00 PM'] who says the writers of the bible were catholic? where in the bible does it say they were catholic?
[/quote]
Where in the Bible does it say they weren't?

Note: See signature

[God Conquers]

[quote]when weighed against the Bible[/quote]

But it's this that I'm talking about.

Both you Pastor AND the Church Father are measuring against the Bible.

One lived during the time it was composed. One didn't.

Who should you trust?

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 20 2004, 12:03 PM']

The absolute folly of such a conclusion is proved by this one observation: He was literally still there before, during, and after they had partaken of the bread and the cup! He was not changed into some liquid and bread His flesh was still on His bones, and His blood still in His veins. He had not vanished away to reappear in the form of a piece of bread or a cup of wine! [/quote]
Sorry if someone has said this already but if Jesus can feed 5,000 people on a few fish and some bread, then He can feed His disciples His flesh without 'running out' of His own body.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]abortion, contraception, infant baptism, or loss of salvation after "getting saved", etc.

(I guess some of these really aren't 'small' issues, but they are ones that many can be interpreted falsely from the Bible,)[/quote]

none of the pastors disagree when it comes to any of those issues.

abortion--only God can give and take life...man and woman have NO right to make that "choice"

contraception...I can't say I've ever heard my pastor speak on this...so I couldn't say where they stand...

infant baptism, as you know, is not done by "protestants" because yes, our faith does have a covering over our children, they can not choose salvation of their own accord. and you can't shove something like that upon them...infant or not. they will present the child before God, and pray over him/her...but that prayer is not just for the baby, its for the parents and (for lack of a better word) godparents, whose duty it is to pray and help the parents raise their child(ren) in the Lord's way.

loss of salvation...you can fall from grace, as I did, but as I sit here typing, there was not ONE day that passed, that I was not in turmoil, crying out to God to help me, to give the strength, to put people in my life to encourage me...and He did, He called me back to Him... yet you can NOT ignore the calling of God if you are truly saved. there are those that "go thru the motions" but as is pointed out by the parable of the seeds and the soil, they did not really have what it took...the faith or the willing heart to fully believe and trust in God to handle all things.

---

and cmom...I really don't ever recall reading "catholic" in any of Jesus teachings... and while yes, His church is universal, its based on Him...so I'm a catholic Christian...furshur.

amen and God bless.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 20 2004, 01:06 PM'] good work around maxk...though I don't read anywhere that eating something physically will help us spiritually...I could be wrong though...

[/quote]
how could suffering on a cross physically help us spiritually? how can having sex outside of marriage, a physical act, cause spiritual damage? same thing. the physical world is connected to the spiritual world. it's like the space time continuum (spelling?)

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 20 2004, 01:23 PM']you throw your rubberstamp on it as if to change the truth...

yet you can not.

the Bible says what it does...and you can not change that.

my post is yet unanswered and unchallenged.

your alleged 2000 years of teachings and dogma have NOTHING to do with the [b]context[/b] of what Christ said...

if you can not support what you believe with the WHOLE bible, and not just bits and pieces....I'm sorry.

God bless.[/quote]
Jesus is The Way The Truth and The Life this is what the TRUTH SAYS:

[color=red]Jesus said to them, [b]"I am the bread of life;[/b] whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.

But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe.

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,

because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

The Jews murmured about him because he said, [b]"I am the bread that came down from heaven," [/b]

and they said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.

[b][i][u]Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. [/u][/i][/b]

[b]I am the bread of life. [/b]

Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;

this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; [b]and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."[/b]

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"

[b]Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.[/b]

Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

[b][u]For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.[/u][/b]

[b][u]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. [/u][/b]

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?"

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve. [/color]

At the Last Supper the TRUTH said THIS IS MY BODY....... THIS IS MY BLOOD.......


God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

if you're really comparing those things to eating...

read your Bible.

God bless.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 22 2004, 06:57 PM']
and as many times as I've said it, I don't interpret the Bible for myself. My Pastor and other elders in the Church teach me...from the Bible. Yeah, we respect tradition, and go back to what the early church founders said, but never use their writings as anything more than that...writings from holy, yes holy, and fallible men. [/quote]
but you don't know if your elders in the church are right, you trust that the holy spirit is guiding them. just like we trust that all the 'elders' (apostles, popes, early church fathers, etc.) of our church are guided by the holy spirit. who's right?