Fifth Marian Dogma?!

[Livin_the_MASS]

So now that time has passed and I've had more time to put together St. Louis de Montfort and Maximilian Kolbes teachings on Mary, they have brought some thing to light for me. I will put it together the best that I can. So Jesus and Mary go together. You can not have one without the other. These two Saints echo each other on the need of Mary in our salvation, and I quote...


[quote name='The book God Alone']"[b][i]If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men simply to work out their salvation[/i][/b], it is even more necessary for those who are called to a special perfection. [b][i]I do not believe that anyone can acquire intimate union with Our Lord and perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without a very close union with the Blessed Virgin and an absolute dependence on her support[/i][/b]." (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg. 301)




"Hence it is true to say that Jesus is the fruit and product of Mary wherever he is present, be it in heaven, on earth, in our tabernacles or in our hearts. She alone is the tree of life and Jesus alone is the fruit of that tree. Therefore anyone who wishes to possess this wonderful fruit in his heart must first possess the tree that produces it; [b][i]whoever wishes to possess Jesus must possess Mary[/i][/b]." (Love of Eternal Wisdom-God Alone pg.107)



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[size="3"]These indeed are bold words from the Saint but he adds more!

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[quote name='The book God Alone']"[b][i]As in the natural life a child must have a father and a mother so in the supernatural life of grace a true child of the Church must have God for his Father and Mary for his mother[/i][/b]. [b][i][u]If he prides himself on having God for his Father but does not give Mary the tender affection of a true child, he is an imposter and his father is the devil.[/u][/i][/b]" (Secret of Mary-God Alone pg.266)

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[size="3"]Wow what words! When I read them it scared me at first! Because my devotion to Our Mother was lacking. I knew she was my Mother given to me by Christ but I didn't really know her until recent times. So a few months later I came across St. Maximilian Kolbe and it made my mouth drop when I read what he said...

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[quote name='The book The Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit']"[b][i]Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother either; the Father will not send his Son to him; the Son will not descend into his soul; the Holy Spirit will not make him a member of the mystical body of Christ; for all these mysteries of grace take place in Mary full of grace, and in her alone[/i][/b]. No other creature is or will ever be immaculate like her, or full of grace, or capable of being so intimately united to the Lord as was the Immaculate Virgin. [b][i]And since the first-born, the Man-God, was conceived only through the specific consent of the Most Blessed Virgin, the same holds true of all other humans, who must imitate in all things their primary model, Christ[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg. 84)


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[size="3"]It is important to get to know Our Mother better! These words should inspire one to begin the walk to get to know Mary! I never really understood her deep oneness with the Holy Spirit until I came across Kolbe. De Montfort understood this as well but did not express himself in the same way as Kolbe but he got his point across. De Montfort used the word "faithful and inseparable spouse" when speaking of Mary and the Holy Spirit. Kolbe understood this oneness to go beyond even the oneness in human marriage. Mary is so one with the Holy Spirit she called herself the "Immacualte Conception". Kolbe says that the Holy Spirit is the "Eternal Immacualte Conception" the "Uncreated Immaculate Conception". The love between the Father and the Son produces a "conception". Notice Mary says "I am the Immaculate Conception" She uses the very identity of the Holy Spirit. I will quote...
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[quote name='The book The Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit']"And who is the Holy Spirit? The flowering of the love of the Father and the Son. If the fruit of created love is a created conception, then the fruit of divine Love, that prototype of all created love, is necessarily a divine 'conception.' [b][i]The Holy Spirit is, therefore, the [/i][/b]'[b][i]uncreated eternal conception[/i][/b]…'" (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.3)



"In what does this life of the Spirit in Mary consist? [b][i]He himself is uncreated Love in her[/i][/b]; the Love of the Father and of the Son, the Love by which God loves himself, the very love of the Most Holy Trinity. He is a fruitful Love, a 'Conception'. Among creatures made in God's image the union brought about by married love is the most intimate of all (cf. Mt 19:6) [b][i]In a much more precise, more interior, more essential manner, the Holy Spirit lives in the soul of the Immaculata, in the depths of her very being. He makes her fruitful from the very instant of her existence, all during her life, and for all eternity[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.4)


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[size="3"][font="Calibri"]"If among human beings the wife takes the name of her husband because she belongs to him, is one with him, becomes equal to him and is, with him the source of new life, [b][i]with how much greater reason should the name of the Holy Spirit, who is the divine Immaculate Conception, be used as the name of her in whom he lives as uncreated Love, the principle of life in the whole supernatural order of grace[/i][/b]?"(Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.51)[/font][/size]


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[size="3"][font="Calibri"]This is not to say that the Holy Spirit took flesh in Mary. But one could say her spirit is the Holy Spirit or that they have one sole life. I will not use my poor words to explain I will let the Saints speak for me!...
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[size="3"][font="Calibri"][size="3"][font="Calibri"]
[size="3"][font="Calibri"][size="3"][font="Calibri"][/font][/size][/font][/size][quote name='The book The Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit'][size="3"][font="Calibri"][size="3"][font="Calibri"]"The task of the theologian is not to demonstrate the ineffable, but to try to express it if he can in terms which will provoke the heart of the believer to go beyond what the mind can understand. [b][i]The Holy Spirit is 'quasi' (in some manner) incarnate, without being really and strictly incarnate; for Mary the Immaculate is as such taken up by the Holy Spirit in all her being, as a woman and as a mother[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.62)[/font][/size]


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[font="Calibri"][font="Calibri"][size="3"]"Jesus Christ has two natures, divine and human, which are united in one single divine Person; such is the exact and precise formulation of the dogma. [b][i]The Immaculata is united to the Holy Spirit so closely that we can at least say that the Holy Spirit and Mary are two persons who live in such intimate union that they have but one sole life[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.43)[/size][/font]

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"By saying 'I am the Immaculate Conception,' [b][i]Mary clearly showed that she is intimately united with the third Person of the Trinity whose privileged sanctuary, whose image she is; we can truly say that her life is the very life of the Holy Spirit in her[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.93)

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[size="3"]"[b][i]For the Holy Spirit is her spirit[/i][/b]. Far from being alienated in her personality because of the dominance of the Holy Spirit, she is on the contrary more than any other creature in full possession of herself." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.68)


[/size][size="3"]"[b][i]God sends to us the one who personifies his love: Mary, the spouse of the Spirit[/i][/b]-a spirit of maternal love-immaculate, all beautiful, spotless, even though she is our sister, a true daughter of the human race. God confides to her the communication of his mercy to souls. [b][i]He makes of her the Mediatrix of the graces merited for us by her divine Son, for she is full of grace, the mother of all souls born of grace, reborn and always being reborn, becoming ever more God-like[/i][/b]. (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.107)[/size]


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[size="3"][quote name='The book God Alone'][size="3"]"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man, and that he produces every day until the end of the world the members of the body of this adorable Head. [b][i]For this reason the more he finds Mary his dear and inseparable spouse in a soul the more powerful and effective he becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul and that soul in Jesus Christ[/i][/b]… "(True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.295)[/size]


[size="3"]"This does not mean that the Blessed Virgin confers on the Holy Spirit a fruitfulness which he does not already possess. Being God he has the ability to produce just like the Father and the Son, although he does not use this power and so does not produce another divine person[b][i]. But it does mean that the Holy Spirit chose to make use of our Blessed Lady, although he had no absolute need of her in order to become actively fruitful in producing Jesus Christ and his members in her and by her[/i][/b]. This is a mystery of grace unknown even to many of the most learned and spiritual of Christians…" (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.295-296)

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[/size][size="3"]So when seen in this light one can better grasp Mary's role! Again I will let the Saints do the talking...

[/size][size="3"][quote name='The book The Immacualte Conception and the Holy Spirit'][size="3"]"[b][i]If we consider all these truths together we can conclude that Mary, as Mother of Jesus our Savior, was made the Co-redemptrix of the human race; as the spouse of the Holy Spirit she shared in the distribution of all graces[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.91)[/size]


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[size="3"][quote name='The book God Alone'][size="3"]"God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage[b][i]. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystic channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly[/i][/b]…" (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.296)[/size]

[size="3"]"God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses, so that she distributes all his gifts and graces to whom she wills, as much as she wills, how she wills and when she wills[b][i]. No heavenly gift is given to men which does not pass through her virginal hands. Such indeed is the will of God, who has decreed that we should have all things through Mary[/i][/b]…" (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.296) [/size]


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So when taking in these truths I wonder when Holy Mother Church will proclaim these facts. On the back of Kolbes book it says that there is much debate about a fifth Marian dogma and calls Kolbe the "Prophet of the fifth Marian dogma". I hope it comes soon because all souls need to know these things!
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[Brother Adam]

So when taking in these truths I wonder when Holy Mother Church will proclaim these facts.


Like all things, when the Church is ready, and not before.

[thessalonian]

St. Louis is not for those Catholics on milk. Many protestants use him as an example of Catholic idolatry toward Mary and from their perspective reading him, I can understand why. But no man's words can ever be greater than Mary's "be it done unto me according to your word". From these words came so great a gift for all mankind. From these words MARY brought salvation in to the world. From these words will the head of the serpent be crushed. All this through her by her son Jesus Christ. She is rightly honored as his mother and as co-redemptrix because ALL redemption comes about because of her fiat.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1294091610' post='2196254']
St. Louis is not for those Catholics on milk. Many protestants use him as an example of Catholic idolatry toward Mary and from their perspective reading him, I can understand why. But no man's words can ever be greater than Mary's "be it done unto me according to your word". From these words came so great a gift for all mankind. From these words MARY brought salvation in to the world. From these words will the head of the serpent be crushed. All this through her by her son Jesus Christ. She is rightly honored as his mother and as co-redemptrix because ALL redemption comes about because of her fiat.
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I am sure it is a lot for some to take in. It was for me to, but after putting the two books together it made more sense. All Marian devotion is Christ centered if it wasn't we would have to reject it.

[quote name='The book God Alone']"If then we are establishing sound devotion to Our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to Our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ.[b][i] If devotion to Our Lady distracted us from Our Lord we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil.[/i][/b] But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully." (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.308)

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It is like you said through Mary salvation came into the world

[quote name='The book God Aone']"Mary is the means Our Lord chose to come to us and she is also the means we should choose to go to him, for she is not like other creatures who tend rather to lead us away from God than towards him, if we are over-attached to them. [b][i]Mary's strongest inclination is to unite us to Jesus her Son, and her Son's strongest wish is that we come to him through his Blessed Mother[/i][/b]." (True Devotion to Mary-God Alone pg.313)[/quote]

[quote name='The book God Alone']"Let us not imagine, then, as some misguided teachers do, that Mary being simply a creature would be a hindrance to a union with the Creator.[b][i] Far from it, for it is no longer Mary who lives but Jesus Christ himself, God alone, who lives in her. Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St. Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth[/i][/b]." (God Alone)[/quote]
When I first started reading de Montforts work it was a lot to take in. But when one dives deep into it they see it is Christ centered. And when we honor Mary we are only doing what Christ did. He honored Her and gave Her a share is His glory. Even Jesus understood Her oneness with the Holy Spirit.
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[size="3"][font="Calibri"][/font][/size][quote name='The book The Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit']

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]"At Cana, the Holy Spirit through Mary provoked the response of Jesus when she said: 'They have no more wine'; for Jesus knows full well that everything his mother says and does is inspired by the Spirit of truth and love. [b][i]So when Mary told the servants, 'Do whatever he tells you,' Jesus obeyed the Spirit which thus launched him definitely on the mission which would lead him to Calvary[/i][/b]. From that time on he considered his mother as the new Eve associated with himself, the new Adam: 'Woman, what is that to me and to thee?' [b][i]The Most Blessed Virgin did not lose her title as his Mother, but her maternity began reaching ever farther out becoming universal motherhood which had been promised in vain to the first Eve[/i][/b]." (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit pg.94)[/font][/size]

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That's why I wish there was better teaching of Mary to others. You hit the nail on the head. "Catholics on milk" have trouble with Marian teachings. Thats why I pray for a fifth dogma of the Church.

[holly.o]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1294091610' post='2196254']
St. Louis is not for those Catholics on milk. Many protestants use him as an example of Catholic idolatry toward Mary and from their perspective reading him, I can understand why. But no man's words can ever be greater than Mary's "be it done unto me according to your word". From these words came so great a gift for all mankind. From these words MARY brought salvation in to the world. From these words will the head of the serpent be crushed. All this through her by her son Jesus Christ. She is rightly honored as his mother and as co-redemptrix because ALL redemption comes about because of her fiat.
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I think the simpler one is, the easier it is to accept St. Loiuis de Montford's writings. Like a child accepting his mother's love...

[fides' Jack]

I'm torn on the issue. Of course, having a great devotion to the BVM can only be beneficial to one's soul. However, it is possible to go too far, and to attribute to her things that should be reserved for God alone.

Is she a coredemptrix? I don't know. If she is, it is through the grace of God, and not of her own power. She is human, and would have sinned, except for the grace of God.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

We all help God carry out the fullness of Redemption. And Mary helped Him in a very special way.

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

I can honestly say that Our Blessed Virgin Mother brought (and kept) me into the Church and to her Son. As a cradle Catholic, conversion comes in its own way and course, and mine came through Her grace.

Pax,

TradMom

[Ed Normile]

She brought forth the Head that gave birth to the Church.

..... and after this our exile, show unto us the Blessed Fruit of Thy womb Jesus !

ed

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='TradMom' timestamp='1294436047' post='2197644']
+Praised be Jesus Christ!

I can honestly say that Our Blessed Virgin Mother brought (and kept) me into the Church and to her Son. As a cradle Catholic, conversion comes in its own way and course, and mine came through Her grace.

Pax,

TradMom
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I'm not sure how to read this. It would be inappropriate to capitalize "her" when referring to the BVM, because that's reserved for God. So then I must assume that "her" is in reference to the Church (aka Mystical Body of Christ). Either way, all grace comes from God, so it belongs neither to the Blessed Virgin or to the Church. We can say "the grace received through her intercession," but I think this takes it a bit too far.

[fides' Jack]

Well, now that I'm thinking a little more, I might be a little off myself. Can somebody check on this?

It might be acceptable to think of grace as belonging to the Church because God bestowed graces on the Church to be given to people as necessary (e.g. through the sacraments). Still, the Church is just a conduit through which God's grace can be given to people, and not the source of grace. Nor is the Blessed Virgin.