dairygirl4u2c Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) i wouldn't want this to get caught up in a conversation on masturbation. the point is that mortal sins can be mitigated in theory, but ldevelopment, 'not really knowing' 'not really intending the sin part' or 'no really intending, in some other sense' etc. /// especially for, those who are discerning the catholic church itself. that' the other considreation that needs to be cosidered, given a person can only be said to know something is wrong, wehn they accept the authority for why it's wrong, which often is the catholic church itself. you guys have made some great points. Edited January 4, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 "i know this is a sin and i'm going to do it anyway'. that is a requirement to me for a sin. if they're just focused on other things, 'i want sex' or whatever their sin is, i'm sure they've chosen enough. but for someone in the deliberation of whether it's wrong to beging with --- it's not a question of if they're just not caring, too focused on other things, 'i know it's wrong and doing it anyway'--- it's a question of that formation, or deliberation, and how it mitigates those things like 'i know but doing anyway' 'i'm too focused on this or that'. you guys need to address more concretely how lack of development, and lack of full consent affects mortal sin. also, i think rk said it, 'we don't know'. but if we don't know, or, as i said, we can make good judgment based on what we do know, for a practical assessment. and from that, how does one address the issue of partaking of the eucharist given the arguable conflicting of the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 perhaps that canon lawyer story was narrow, given masturbation is said to be a hard issue, and they even have a passage about mitigating circumstances. maybe there's no canon lawyer who'd take up that fight, 'not really a mortal sin so can partake' on other issues..... but i was lookin at the topic from a much larger perspetive than masturbation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I have yet to figure out what X's discernment has to do with this question? Masturbation is grave matter, regardless of who engages in it: married, single, priest, religious, teen, old person, etc. Being in formation means that you have a spiritual director and you regularly confess. Depending on [i]what[/i] you are discerning, you may be doing a daily examen. All of these tools are meant to assist you in growing in holiness. But the idea that 'no mortal sin' exists in a house of formation is...foolish. Of course everyone in formation is a sinner! We all are. True, I think it was St. Therese's confessor who said he thought she had never committed a mortal sin in her life. So...there are saintly people! But...most of us struggle with [i]something[/i] and need a lot of grace to improve. Unless I have misunderstood you? Was some other form of discernment meant? If someone has a habitual sin (keep confessing the [i]same[/i] thing every time), the confessor is likely to address it at some point with a very strong 'stop doing it!' penance. If you think you can't avoid this particular sin - pray more. Work harder to avoid it. Temptation seems insurmountable in the moment, but, if resisted...well, it can be beaten. If it's an issue of weak will power, fasting can help. Also...accountability and avoiding occasions of sin. More frequent reception of the sacrament of reconciliation seems to be called for here, not more frequent reception of holy communion. Missing the graces of communion can be an incentive to take this sin seriously. And, if you miss Jesus...you can always visit Him in Adoration. It should be possible to confess weekly, and then receive communion in a state of grace immediately after. If X is concerned about missing communion, that would be the way to go, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1294111424' post='2196398'] i wouldn't want this to get caught up in a conversation on masturbation. the point is that mortal sins can be mitigated in theory, but ldevelopment, 'not really knowing' 'not really intending the sin part' or 'no really intending, in some other sense' etc. /// especially for, those who are discerning the catholic church itself. that' the other considreation that needs to be cosidered, given a person can only be said to know something is wrong, wehn they accept the authority for why it's wrong, which often is the catholic church itself. you guys have made some great points. [/quote] This raises a whole set of new issues. X may still be "discerning" whether masturbation is a sin or not, X knows the Church says its a sin, but hes not sure whether the Church itself is right - as you said in your post, X is questioning the authority of the Church. If this is the case, then masturbation, IMHO, is probably not a mortal sin. Why? Because they don't know its a grave matter, one of the three required elements. Before someone blasts me on this, I am assuming this person honestly believes that the Church is wrong, and this is not due to hardness or heart or feigned ignorance. But if this is the case, there is a much bigger issue at play. Why is someone who is not sure of the authority of the Church receiving communion in the first place? Receiving communion presupposes that you are actually in communion with the Church in the first place. This may raise another question... Does a protestant who receives Holy Communion commit a mortal sin? Can one commit a mortal sin if one doesn't believe in mortal sins (ie all sins are equal?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 rk is backing me on what i thought on the matter of how development matters. he had a great point though about why they want to receive to begin with if they aren't catholic. i suppose they are fighting their demons yet want the eucharist. or they are more like orthodox, or liberal catholics, or protestsants who want to receive, yet don't know too much about the CC itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 'But the idea that 'no mortal sin' exists in a house of formation is...foolish. Of course everyone in formation is a sinner!' I'm not sayin no mortal sin exists at all. i'm saying on certain issues that they are discerning, they wouldn't be in mortal sin to partake on those issues they are discerning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 if a person who is masturbating and wondering whether or not the Church is correct in its teachings against masturbation, then there are some serious problems, and this person should not be receiving the Holy Eucharist..at.all. As for receiving Holy Communion for "strength" that's ridiculous. When a person is engaging in mortal sin and questioning the authority of the Church, there is no "strength" to be had.... ...you CANNOT feed a CORPSE.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294092028' post='2196258'] Interesting. When my "cradle Catholic" partner confessed this to his priest as an adolescent (in Chicago, 1960's era), he was told that this was a perfectly natural thing for a young man to do and he need not confess to it. [/quote] that priest was not giving him the correct teachings of the Church. Therefore, your partner's mortal sins are upon that priest's soul as well. Also, one shouldn't be sharing with anyone what they say or hear in Confession. There is a Seal of Confession that should be honored at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresita Nerita Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1294153871' post='2196534'] that priest was not giving him the correct teachings of the Church. Therefore, your partner's mortal sins are upon that priest's soul as well. Also, one shouldn't be sharing with anyone what they say or hear in Confession. There is a Seal of Confession that should be honored at all times. [/quote] I was always under the impression that the Seal of Confession applied to the priest, but not so much to the penitent - i mean, am i seriously not allowed to tell other people what I said in confession? It would be completely wrong, however, for the priest to tell someone else what I said. Also, Dairy, I wasn't trying to make this a convo about masturbation either. I just was trying to make the point that something that is "grave matter" is not necessarily a mortal sin if it doesn't meet the other requirements: i mean, "mortal" qualifies the particular circumstances, motivations, etc attending the grave matter, (consent, knowledge) not just the matter itself. I was also saying that basically, since X's priest probably knows his individual consent and knowledge etc. better than us, he should probably just listen to his priest and not to people on message boards...though this is a lovely phorum of course! I agree with the others that if someone isn't in agreement with the Church about something, or not even a Catholic, they should definitely not receive. That's a basic teaching. However, if someone agrees [b]in theory[/b] that something is a sin b/c of church teaching, but he doesn't REALLY understand why, maybe it would be much much harder for him to avoid it. In that case, the priest may determine that he "knows not what he does" even though he tries to agree with the church and tries to understand its teachings. In that case, again, just listen to the priest and don't assume you know better. Rkwright, I agree actually! glad we resolved that, above. PS I think we're all trying honestly to understand truth, here, and to understand the teachings of the Church, and I have confidence that God, who is LOVE, puts up with our honest stupidity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1294153871' post='2196534'] that priest was not giving him the correct teachings of the Church. Therefore, your partner's mortal sins are upon that priest's soul as well. Also, one shouldn't be sharing with anyone what they say or hear in Confession. There is a Seal of Confession that should be honored at all times. [/quote] I believe the seal of confession applies to the priest. Having said that, I still believe that it would be naive not to assume that other priests do not discuss what was said in confession amongst themselves. Not "who" said it, per se, but "what". This could be for many purposes, very few nefarious. As far as the initial disclosure of that information to me, it was germane to the discussion we were having. I couldn't nail down the priest if I wanted to, even though I know what suburb of Chicago he lived in at the time. So I doubt any of you could. I am well versed in anonymity, due to other parts of my life, so if I stepped over that, I am sorry. I am interested in the dichotomy here, though. My children are almost grown, and my path to Catholicism is a solo journey. My children have not yet found a spiritual path...so I would not be aware of the teachings in this manner. You have informed me that this is a mortal sin, yet others have been told not. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294163006' post='2196565'] I believe the seal of confession applies to the priest. Having said that, I still believe that it would be naive not to assume that other priests do not discuss what was said in confession amongst themselves. Not "who" said it, per se, but "what". This could be for many purposes, very few nefarious. As far as the initial disclosure of that information to me, it was germane to the discussion we were having. I couldn't nail down the priest if I wanted to, even though I know what suburb of Chicago he lived in at the time. So I doubt any of you could. I am well versed in anonymity, due to other parts of my life, so if I stepped over that, I am sorry. I am interested in the dichotomy here, though. My children are almost grown, and my path to Catholicism is a solo journey. My children have not yet found a spiritual path...so I would not be aware of the teachings in this manner. You have informed me that this is a mortal sin, yet others have been told not. Interesting. [/quote] Your last paragraph is a little vauge... I'm not sure what dichotomy you're refering to, but make no mistake, masturbation, in the objective sense, is a mortal sin. [quote]2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. [b]"Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[/b] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved." To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability. [/quote] The CCC is pretty clear on this. Most of this discussion has been to the subjective elements of a mortal sin (knowledge, consent, etc.) and those elements are subjective to each individual person/act. However, the act in the objective sense is a mortal sin. Edited January 4, 2011 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Dichotomy was likely not the best choice of words. And, thanks. I'll chew on this a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294166192' post='2196582'] Dichotomy was likely not the best choice of words. And, thanks. I'll chew on this a while. [/quote] No problem... I noticed you're somewhat new... this is one of the best things about this site. You're able to get solid information, from a bunch of sources, and then work it out yourself. As you solo journey through Catholicism, approach tough teachings with a deference towards the Church. I would often say "ok this is what the Church teaches. Its a tough teaching, and it makes me uncomfortable right now. But I know Jesus Himself founded the Church, and the Holy Spirit guides the Church. I know the Church is trying to guide my soul to heaven. With that in mind, let me think about this teaching" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 that is extremely good advice. some battles are harder-won than others, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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