Bomb Hits Egypt Church At New Year's Mass, 21 Dead

[HisChildForever]

Thank you, Stern, for your thoughtful posts and contribution to this current discussion. I cannot speak for Knight, but I have said my piece and since this discussion has clearly taken a poor turn, it is best to calmly back out. God bless.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294278021' post='2197241']Thank you, Stern, for your thoughtful posts and contribution to this current discussion. I cannot speak for Knight, but I have said my piece and since this discussion has clearly taken a poor turn, it is best to calmly back out. God bless.[/quote]Feel welcome anytime to clarify your points, answer the questions, and satisfy any of our concerns from the past several pages. Thank you for contributions of accusations and judgments of other peoples motives, tones, and attitudes.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294272456' post='2197204']
I still reject you unjust condemnation and mockery of this shepherd of the Church. I reject your willful blindness to his true point and your twisting of his words. He ask that we the faithful have mercy, but for God to do His will upon sinners.[/quote]

Rather than your condemnations of non-existent injustices and your untrue allegations of "willful blindness," I'd prefer that you answer my questions.


[quote]God will directly destroy unrepentant sinners at the end of the age. God will directly judge and dåmn the devil and all the wicked to the ever lasting fire, where the worm dieth not, which will be far worse than death. Yet still I pray for God's will to be done. You are too quick to judge me, and this shepherd.[/quote]

Nobody judged your soul. Please stop playing the victim. We're two people having a discussion, Knight, and I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. When you finally make your case clear and unequivocal, [i]then[/i] I'll try to discern whether your idea of "what God wills" is in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His Church.

Yes, God will judge a lot of people: does he will them to go to hell, or is that not ultimately the decision of the unrepentant? I made a clear distinction between direct will and indirect will, and you keep on saying, "I support the will of God." Does God [i]directly[/i] will to inflict suffering on evildoers, or does he [i]indirectly[/i] will it? If, indirectly, you will God's wrath upon the people who did this, insofar as it is necessary for justice, hey, that's one thing. But that Priest of God said something that [i]really[/i] came off as a [i]direct call for God to cause some hurting on those particular people. [/i]I cannot reconcile such a desire with Catholic doctrine. So either you've got to say that the Priest of God did not, in fact, directly will sinners to have suffering inflicted on them, or you've got to say that he did and condemn it. I don't find the former theory at all tenable.

[quote]Had I stated 'Lord, "Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward (punishment, wrath, judgment) to the proud (unrepentant sinners) " without telling you it was from the Bible I have little doubt you would not have judged me for that as well.[/quote]

I would have recognized it. I have no problem with the verse. I have a problem with your seemingly overzealous-for-retribution interpretation of it.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294278994' post='2197251']
Rather than your condemnations of non-existent injustices and your untrue allegations of "willful blindness," I'd prefer that you answer my questions. [/quote]

You admitted to mocking the priest, and in that mockery you judged him. He did just as a man of God should do when the flock is being slaughtered. He gave it up to God in sorrow, he heard the cries of their blood crying up to God for vengeance, you judge that he is in sin/error because he cries up to God the same cry.

So you have judge and condemned that priest.

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294278994' post='2197251']Nobody judged your soul. Please stop playing the victim. We're two people having a discussion, Knight, and I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. When you finally make your case clear and unequivocal, [i]then[/i] I'll try to discern whether your idea of "what God wills" is in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His Church. [/quote]

That is hard to see, when someone repeatedly asks me if I pray for God to kill someone, and I answer in the negative, or state no, I do not pray for God to kill this or that sinner. It is likely that someone is judging and accusing me of what they repeatedly ask, when it was answered.

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294278994' post='2197251']Yes, God will judge a lot of people: does he will them to go to hell, or is that not ultimately the decision of the unrepentant? [/quote]

God is ultimately Judge. He alone is Judge. He rejects them, He has them thrown into the darkness. And they are powerless to do a thing about it.


[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294278994' post='2197251']I made a clear distinction between direct will and indirect will, and you keep on saying, "I support the will of God." Does God [i]directly[/i] will to inflict suffering on evildoers, or does he [i]indirectly[/i] will it? If, indirectly, you will God's wrath upon the people who did this, insofar as it is necessary for justice, hey, that's one thing.

But that Priest of God said something that [i]really[/i] came off as a [i]direct call for God to cause some hurting on those particular people. [/i]I cannot reconcile such a desire with Catholic doctrine. So either you've got to say that the Priest of God did not, in fact, directly will sinners to have suffering inflicted on them, or you've got to say that he did and condemn it. I don't find the former theory at all tenable.[/quote]

The problem is you've assumed that when one prays for God's vengeance that, that person whats the evildoer to be killed by God. When I do not believe that is the case. We the faithful must forgive and have mercy on those that harm us, but we cannot forget injustices made against us. When such a wicked act is done against Holy Mother Church, we may, no, we must pray to God that He brings Justice to the guilty, and for the guilty Justice is the wrath of God, and His rejection. Praying for wrath upon the wicked is not to crave their deaths. But for God's Justice should they not repent before death. Because we are to forgive and to show mercy and so we must, but we also must not forget that our brothers blood is crying up to God for vengeance. Unlike Cain we are our brothers keeper, if our brother cries up to God should we not also?

As for the direct and indirect will of God. While God allows nature to kill sinners, and anyone really this is part of His indirect will. Yet God can directly cause the death of sinners, and has indeed through out time, and will again. I do not crave the death of any sinner, or anyone, I pray their repentance, I do pray the will of God be done, His whole will, all of it. Who's will is to bring Justice and wrath upon the wicked who will not repent even after they are given time after time.

[Ice_nine]

Just as an impartial observer, after skimming this thread, it seems as though both sides are not really listening to on another, getting their signals crossed, and getting angry and all it has become now is a shouting match that's really not getting through to anyone.

We are after all talking about 21 poor souls who were unarmed and defenseless, slaughtered as they gathered to worship God. I don't think we do much to honor their memory by praying down vengeance against this particular group of wicked people, and conversely if you're not enraged and saddened by this and if you don't cry out to God to purge the Earth of such wickedness, that also takes the matter too lightly.

I think you can pray for God to avenge the crime that happened here, while simultaneously praying for the conversion of the wicked with the same intensity. I mean if God must subject the wicked to great suffering in order that they may open their eyes and be converted, then I guess both the cries for justice and for mercy would be satisfied.

Anyhow, I just think all of this dialogue has been relatively fruitless, and it's kind of a shame.

[dominicansoul]

[url="http://wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/January-2011/News-Update-on-Recent-Incidents-of-Christian-Pers.aspx"]Word on Fire Blog[/url]

Please read as this offers appropriate responses to this terrible persecution of Christians in the middle east.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1294330533' post='2197385']Just as an impartial observer, after skimming this thread, it seems as though both sides are not really listening to on another, getting their signals crossed, and getting angry and all it has become now is a shouting match that's really not getting through to anyone.

We are after all talking about 21 poor souls who were unarmed and defenseless, slaughtered as they gathered to worship God. I don't think we do much to honor their memory by praying down vengeance against this particular group of wicked people, and conversely if you're not enraged and saddened by this and if you don't cry out to God to purge the Earth of such wickedness, that also takes the matter too lightly.

I think you can pray for God to avenge the crime that happened here, while simultaneously praying for the conversion of the wicked with the same intensity. I mean if God must subject the wicked to great suffering in order that they may open their eyes and be converted, then I guess both the cries for justice and for mercy would be satisfied.

Anyhow, I just think all of this dialogue has been relatively fruitless, and it's kind of a shame.[/quote][b]Respectfully agreed[/b], with the proviso that Sternhauser and I have have painstakingly attempted to get knight to offer a clear, direct, and explicit clarification... which he avoids.

But in that same breath, I admit what knight thinks isn't relevant. This senseless act of violence is horrifying, but the problem becomes in your reply, "[i]what is justice?[/i]" Sternhauser and I seem to propose justice and mercy to God are not mutually exclusive, that God's justice is [b][u]not[/u][/b] more senseless torment, violence, or death. Which just from the tone I read from your post, you seem to agree.

Which again I respectfully agree, this discussion is shameful and fruitless. I personally propose that Christianity must be the keeper and guardian of a truer peace, charity, and justice; unlike peace offered by the Roman Empire, by a Roman sword their way. We must be the preservers of a true universal christian charity to all, even to those who hate and persecute us.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294340241' post='2197408']
[b]Respectfully agreed[/b], with the proviso that Sternhauser and I have have painstakingly attempted to get knight to offer a clear, direct, and explicit clarification... which he avoids.
[/quote]

I understand but sometimes you gotta know when to fold em. Sometimes ideas are exchanged and the participants can gain a greater understanding of things and that's GREAT but many times, esp in internet land, there are insurmountable roadblocks in doing so. Tough thing to accept but sometimes the wisest thing to do is just withdraw and pray that you and the others involved will be able to grow to a true understanding of how things actually are.

I'm not trying to play mod or anything. Believe me I've wasted days on my life trying to get someone to understand something and it can be super frustrating, especially when I approached it with humility, a willingness to be corrected, and the best intentions (which can safely say I have NOT done the majority of the times. most of the time it was about ego and being right), but sometimes even with all those precautions and good intentions communication is relatively impossible. So I can see where you and Stern were coming through I just think your time and energy is being wasted at this point.

That's all. This is a terribly sad event. I wonder what these martyrs think of their assailants. May they pray for us as we try to navigate through this evil world.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294340241' post='2197408']
[b]Respectfully agreed[/b], with the proviso that Sternhauser and I have have painstakingly attempted to get knight to offer a clear, direct, and explicit clarification... which he avoids. [/quote]

This requires clarification. You both asked me repeatedly if I prayed for God to kill sinners. I answered in the negative, and no repeatedly. It didn't matter, it seemed quite clear that no answer was going to be accepted other than "yes I do pray for God to kill sinners."

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294340241' post='2197408']But in that same breath, I admit what knight thinks isn't relevant. This senseless act of violence is horrifying, but the problem becomes in your reply, "[i]what is justice?[/i]" Sternhauser and I seem to propose justice and mercy to God are not mutually exclusive, that God's justice is [b][u]not[/u][/b] more senseless torment, violence, or death. Which just from the tone I read from your post, you seem to agree.

Which again I respectfully agree, this discussion is shameful and fruitless. I personally propose that Christianity must be the keeper and guardian of a truer peace, charity, and justice; unlike peace offered by the Roman Empire, by a Roman sword their way. We must be the preservers of a true universal christian charity to all, even to those who hate and persecute us.
[/quote]

Certainly what I am falsely accused of is not relevant, wanting God to kill sinners, nor is it my argument. Post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=110089&view=findpost&p=2197296"]94[/url] of this thread gives a clear example of my stance. Everything God does is good, and all the good He does we may pray that He does. I have never asked for or stated that there should be senseless torment, violence or death. Again Post 94 should prove that to one who is honest.

What is more shameless and fruitless my brother, is the hate between you and I. I am sick to my soul of it. I want to be rid of it. Since I've returned to PM as far as I know until now I have ignored you to the best of my ablity. Though HCF did ask that I reply to your continued repeated questions if I wanted God to kill people, but that is indirect. Yet this has not stopped you from coming into threads I am posting in and attacking my character out the gate, this thread is such an example.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294114351' post='2196413']
Gotta love knight, in a topic about senseless killing, his concern is that there should be more.
[/quote]

A twisting of my words. No questions, just a blanket charge that I want senseless killing.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294191554' post='2196765']
I'm just shocked knight implied that Non-Catholics may be Christian... Are we really going to have this sort of argument, "who gives the most"? But really, lets ignore Non-Christians who help the needy, because that's totally Christian of us.
[/quote]

A attack upon my character, implying that I believe non-Catholics are unchristian, being shocked I would say something counter to that.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294262706' post='2197093']
Knight and HCF are our resident fundamentalist and fanatical Catholics, I wouldn't take either too seriously, my recommendation.
[/quote]

Again attacking my character and the character of my friend (who received other attacks as well).

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294264188' post='2197128']
Totally not uncalled for. Knight persistently finds himself in opposition to the opinion and teachings of the Church, quite frequently interprets Church documents as his mood strikes him, and harasses other Catholics about the same.
[/quote]

Yet another pointless attack on my character that had nothing to do with the debate at all.

Because of these comments and others like them I would like to be rid of all the hate, and it is hate. Therefor I most sincerely apologize for all the wrongs I have committed against you, all the unchristian things I have said every unjust word, all of my sins against you I am sorry for committing.

In the past when I have ended with a prayer that God Bless you, you haven't liked it. But every time it was sincere. I do pray for you and I do ask God to Bless you. I pray to God this bitterness that has gone on far to long ends today, but if it continues it will not by my hand. I pray that you will accept my apology and even offer your own.

God Bless dear Brother in Christ,
Knight

Also note I do this by my own free will, not being asked by anyone to do so

Edited January 6, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']This requires clarification. You both asked me repeatedly if I prayed for God to kill sinners. I answered in the negative, and no repeatedly. It didn't matter, it seemed quite clear that no answer was going to be accepted other than "yes I do pray for God to kill sinners."[/quote]Then I suspect you have difficulty comprehending the topic, but I think more realistically this is a straw man. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']Certainly what I am falsely accused of is not relevant, wanting God to kill sinners, nor is it my argument. Post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=110089&view=findpost&p=2197296"]94[/url] of this thread gives a clear example of my stance. Everything God does is good, and all the good He does we may pray that He does. I have never asked for or stated that there should be senseless torment, violence or death. Again Post 94 should prove that to one who is honest.[/quote]Straw man again.[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']What is more shameless and fruitless my brother, is the hate between you and I. I am sick to my soul of it. I want to be rid of it. Since I've returned to PM as far as I know until now I have ignored you to the best of my ablity. Though HCF did ask that I reply to your continued repeated questions if I wanted God to kill people, but that is indirect. Yet this has not stopped you from coming into threads I am posting in and attacking my character out the gate, this thread is such an example.[/quote]Reverse victimization, straw man, and playing victim. None of it is becoming of a "[i]man[/i]" is it? Should we start directing people on Phatmass to some of your questionable and offending comments? But if you want to ignore me, Phatmass has a preference for that which I recommended you take advantage of repeatedly, since Phatmass literally won't let me ignore you. It seems you haven't... I wonder why? Because I know at least one moderator here has publicly asked you to do so.

But I really enjoy how you want to make this all about you.[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']A twisting of my words. No questions, just a blanket charge that I want senseless killing.[/quote]You need to look up what "[i]tongue and cheek[/i]" and "[i]sarcasm[/i]" means. But from reading your posts, that is the impression I get from you, and your reluctant refusal to answer the questions we ALL have been pointedly asking you... just makes it really suspicious. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']A attack upon my character, implying that I believe non-Catholics are unchristian, being shocked I would say something counter to that.[/quote]You actually think a Non-Catholic can be a Christian??? Well, I will have to give credit where credit is due, I didn't think you would say that. Which is the reason it SHOCKED ME. Which is exactly what I wrote... [i]When you walk in the rain, do you think the sky is attacking you?[/i][quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']Again attacking my character and the character of my friend (who received other attacks as well).[/quote]Well, your welcome to disagree with me and disregard my opinion, but I am welcome to have my opinion and express it. Neither of you have in our long history of you two squabbling EVER showed to me that either of you were not fundamentalist or fanatical. Honestly, I don't really care or mind that you are, but it explains to me your harshness with others and your sensitivity to people not agreeing with you.

To be quite frank, this diatribe you have constructed seems more like a personal attack to me, as you went out of your way in a topic that has NOTHING to do with any of this, to turn it into a personal rant about personal matters. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294351229' post='2197461']Yet another pointless attack on my character that had nothing to do with the debate at all.

Because of these comments and others like them I would like to be rid of all the hate, and it is hate. Therefor I most sincerely apologize for all the wrongs I have committed against you, all the unchristian things I have said every unjust word, all of my sins against you I am sorry for committing.

In the past when I have ended with a prayer that God Bless you, you haven't liked it. But every time it was sincere. I do pray for you and I do ask God to Bless you. I pray to God this bitterness that has gone on far to long ends today, but if it continues it will not by my hand. I pray that you will accept my apology and even offer your own.[/quote]I will be honest knight, I'm not so fond of you, but the thing is I DONT HAVE to be fond of you. HCF is, so are others apparently, their prerogative.

[b]But you can't pull together posts from multiple different threads, on different subjects, in different contexts, then put together a condescending judgmental commentary on it then except me to think that your apology is anything but words or that there is any sincerity here.[/b] I don't hate you... I hate your attitude and behavior, which how you treat Sternhauser is mild compared to how riled up you can get. I honestly and sincerely hope that you wake up from this fundamentalist attitude about your faith...

You have a beautiful religion that has a noble history of trying to accept philosophy, science, culture, individuality, creativity, beauty, and people frankly being people! There's a big world out there to explore and enjoy, but I see you spending your time, seemingly trapped by your own faith. Faith isn't supposed to hurt or scare people, it's supposed to liberate and empower, I don't see or hear that with you. I hope someday you will get that... and maybe you can really forgive us "non-traditionalists" for hitting hard on you for letting this kind of anxious compulsiveness rule or maybe even ruin your life. But this MY perspective, you don't have to agree with it and frankly you don't have to like it, your welcome not to.

But this whole diatribe is completely inappropriate, unacceptable, and offensive. Though if you honestly mean what you say, you will go to your preferences like we ALL have repeatedly ask you and you will IGNORE me. Thank you.

IF you are done personally attacking me in an off topic thread, maybe we could actually hear some REAL concern for people have have REALLY died? Seriously, 21 people senseless killed and you are concerned about THIS? One death is too many... In this case, sadly, there is far too many...

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

May God richly bless you my beloved Brother in Christ.

Pax,
Knight

[dominicansoul]

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/95/3216/Egypt/Attack-on-Egypt-Copts/Egypt-Muslims-to-act-as-human-shields-at-Coptic-Ch.aspx


[quote][size="7"][b]Egypt Muslims to act as "human shields" at Coptic Christmas Eve mass[/b][/size]
[size="5"]Coptic Churches around the country expect an influx of Egyptian Muslims to share with the country's Christians their Christmas Eve mass
Nourhan El-Abbassy, Thursday 6 Jan 2011


How afraid are Egypt's Copts?
“Although 2011 started tragically, I feel it will be a year of eagerly anticipated change, where Egyptians will stand against sectarianism and unite as one,” Father Rafaeil Sarwat of the Mar-Mina church told Ahram Online. The Coptic priest was commenting on the now widespread call by Muslim intellectuals and activists upon Egyptian Muslims at large to flock to Coptic churches across the country to attend Coptic Christmas Eve mass, to show solidarity with the nation's Coptic minority, but also to serve as "human shields" against possible attacks by Islamist militants.
Mohamed Abdel Moniem El-Sawy, founder of El-Sawy Culture Wheel was among the promiment Muslim cultural figures who first floated the bold initiative.

“This is it. It is time to change and unite,” asserted journalist Ekram Youssef, another notable sponsor of the intiative, in a telephone interview with Ahram Online. She added that although it is the government’s responsibility to act and find solutions to bring an end to such violations, "it is time for Egyptian citizens to act to revive the true meaning of national unity."

Following last year's Coptic Christmas Eve attack on congregants as they left their church in the Upper Egyptian city of Naga Hamady, Youssef created the crescent and cross logo with the slogan “A nation for all” - that was adopted during the past couple of days by many of Egypt’s 4 million Facebook users as their profile picture.
Mariam Yassin, a 24 year old video editor, will take Thursday off to travel to Alexandria to attend the mass at the Two Saints Church. “I am not going as a representative of any religion. I am supporting all those who died as a result of ignorance.”

Yassin’s friend, Mariam Fekry, was killed along with her mother, sister and aunt in the Two Saints Church attack

“I feel great sympathy for her family’s loss, yet I don’t feel that as a Muslim I should apologize on the behalf of murderers.” Yassin added.

On the other hand, Fatima Mostafa, a 40 year old house wife, will join Copts tomorrow to show that Muslims feel their sorrow. “I want to show the world that Islam is a religion of peace and that such attacks are nothing more than a result of poverty, ignorance and oppression.”

While the reasons they cite for doing so may vary, many Egyptian Muslims are rallying around the idea of acting to protect their fellow citizens.

“I know it might not be safe, yet it’s either we live together, or we die together, we are all Egyptians,” Cherine Mohamed, a 50 year old house wife said.

For Youssef, Egyptians should attend regardless of their faith as “we all have Christians as part of our family. I am a Muslim but I’m sure my great grandfather was a Christian.”

An engineer who wanted to remain anonymous stated that he was looking forward to tomorrow: “I was a Christian and I’m a Muslim now, I want my kids to go to church to realize that both religions are similar; we have one God, and both holy books stress peace and the welfare of the society at large.”

The goodwill has been well received by the Coptic Church, and Coptic priests have been expressing their pleasure that Muslims intend to join them at tomorrow’s mass. Some churches have already put up banners welcoming Muslims to their celebration of the birth of Jesus.

Some fear the initiative will be thwarted, however. “I’m filled with happiness, I feel it will become a national celebration, yet I fear that police won’t allow Muslims to attend the mass,” Ashraf Rasmy, a Coptic volunteer worker said.

Nevertheless, Muslims and Copts are looking forward to tomorrow evening with all that it might bring. Amani Ramsis, a volunteer worker, remains defiant: “It is an anticipated celebration for all Egyptians, whether we live or die, we will never stop celebrating the birth of Jesus, and no one can bury our joy and unity.”
[/quote][/size]

[size="5"]May God protect Christian AND Muslim during this time...[/size]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1294360467' post='2197500']
[url="http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/95/3216/Egypt/Attack-on-Egypt-Copts/Egypt-Muslims-to-act-as-human-shields-at-Coptic-Ch.aspx"]http://english.ahram. ..-Coptic-Ch.aspx[/url]
[size="5"]May God protect Christian AND Muslim during this time...[/size]
[/quote]


Amen.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

whoops Quadruple post...

Edited January 7, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

...

Edited January 7, 2011 by KnightofChrist