Bomb Hits Egypt Church At New Year's Mass, 21 Dead

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294270115' post='2197192']
Those sentences are immaterial to any of the questions I asked. The important distinction is between "direct" and "indirect" will. The Priest of God was directly willing something in his prayer, and I want Knight to accept or disavow what the Priest of God directly willed.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I was not answering what you said, because you asked Knight those questions. I just had that thought about the Our Father and wanted to share.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294270430' post='2197194']
I was not answering what you said, because you asked Knight those questions. I just had that thought about the Our Father and wanted to share.
[/quote]

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." Is calling down suffering upon our enemies an expression of forgiveness of our enemies?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294270531' post='2197195']
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." Is calling down suffering upon our enemies an expression of forgiveness of our enemies?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Of course not, which is why it is sinful to pray for the death of another human being. However, "Thy will be done", we are submitting to the Will of God and while God does not Will that any perish, He does Will that we make our own choices - and if it is our will to choose the road to damnation, then He respects our will (and His respecting of our will is His Will). Hope that is not confusing.

I am sure Knight will answer your questions, once he gets off the phone with me.

Edited January 5, 2011 by HisChildForever

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294269310' post='2197190']
But that doesn't appear to be what you said earlier, when you agreed with the Priest of God who said, " But let us not blanch from[b] raising our voices to the Lord,[/b] with righteous anger and hot tears, [b]to visit His vengeance upon those who did this,[/b] [in other words, this or that sinner][b] to bring down His wrath upon their heads,[/b] [b]to exact upon them a terrifying price in full measure[/b] for their grievous sins."

Are you now distancing yourself from this man's statement? Or do you maintain that it is all right to directly intend God to bring down wrath upon evildoers, while God himself does not directly will such a thing? Or do you maintain that God does, in fact, directly will to bring down wrath upon evildoers?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I still reject you unjust condemnation and mockery of this shepherd of the Church. I reject your willful blindness to his true point and your twisting of his words. He ask that we the faithful have mercy, but for God to do His will upon sinners.

[quote]""Vengeance is mine says the Lord." So Scripture teaches us, and [b]so it must be for us, leaving vengeance to the Lord, and imploring the grace of reconciliation and mercy.[/b] But let us not blanch from raising our voices to the Lord, with righteous anger and hot tears, to visit His vengeance upon those who did this, to bring down His wrath upon their heads, to exact upon them a terrifying price in full measure for their grievous sins.
[b]
That's not the language of hatred; it is the language of the shepherd when the flock is being slaughtered.[/b]" [/quote]

God will directly destroy unrepentant sinners at the end of the age. God will directly judge and dåmn the devil and all the wicked to the ever lasting fire, where the worm dieth not, which will be far worse than death. Yet still I pray for God's will to be done. You are too quick to judge me, and this shepherd. Had I stated 'Lord, "Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward (punishment, wrath, judgment) to the proud (unrepentant sinners) " without telling you it was from the Bible I have little doubt you would not have judged me for that as well.

Edited January 6, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294270852' post='2197198']Of course not, which is why it is sinful to pray for the death of another human being. However, "Thy will be done", we are submitting to the Will of God and while God does not Will that any perish, He does Will that we make our own choices - and if it is our will to choose the road to damnation, then He respects our will (and His respecting of our will is His Will). Hope that is not confusing.[/quote]According to you and knight, is it the will of God that sinners suffer horrible death and condemnation? If it is, then regardless of how you word it, this is what you are asking for.[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294270852' post='2197198']I am sure Knight will answer your questions, once he gets off the phone with me.[/quote]He hasn't directly answered yet, when he comes close to answering he throws in a provision that is confusing and contradictory. I don't wonder why you don't see it.[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294272456' post='2197204']
I still reject you unjust condemnation and mockery of this shepherd of the Church. I reject your willful blindness to his true point and your twisting of his words. He ask that we the faithful have mercy, but for God to do His will upon sinners.[/quote]Could you sound more self-righteous? Sternhauser doesn't seem to have condemned or mocked anyone, but is asking relevant questions and offering reasonable reservations. You are judging very harshly Sternhauser and anyone who doesn't agree with you.[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294272456' post='2197204']God will directly destroy unrepentant sinners at the end of the age. God will directly judge and dåmn the devil and all the wicked to the ever lasting fire, where the worm dieth not, which will be far worse than death. Yet still I pray for God's will to be done. You are too quick to judge me, and this shepherd. Had I stated 'Lord, "Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward (punishment, wrath, judgment) to the proud (unrepentant sinners) " without telling you it was from the Bible I have little doubt you would not have judged me for that as well.[/quote]The fact that you celebrate, defend, and endorse this sort of rhetoric frightens me.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294275859' post='2197220']
According to you and knight, is it the will of God that sinners suffer horrible death and condemnation? If it is, then regardless of how you word it, this is what you are asking for.
[/quote]

In post 43, you clearly came to understand what I was explaining, but now you do not understand?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294275859' post='2197220']According to you and knight, is it the will of God that sinners suffer horrible death and condemnation? [/quote][quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294276082' post='2197221']In post 43, you clearly came to understand what I was explaining, but now you do not understand?[/quote]I am very clearly asking what is the will of God according to you and knight, NOT what you or he is praying for. Are you having difficulty understanding the difference?

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[HisChildForever]

Which I explained in post 78.

[HisChildForever]

It is the Will of God that we make our own choices, choices that either lead to eternal life with Him in Heaven or to damnation in Hell.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294276908' post='2197227']It is the Will of God that we make our own choices, choices that either lead to eternal life with Him in Heaven or to damnation in Hell.[/quote]Which God conveniently gave us free will and a place to go of eternal torment? Hell is hell, regardless of how you word it, trying to rationalize it won't help yourself. But post #78 seems directly contradictory to post #79, tell me if this sounds like a loving merciful and compassionate writer:[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294272456' post='2197204']God will directly destroy unrepentant sinners at the end of the age. God will directly judge and dåmn the devil and all the wicked to the ever lasting fire, where the worm dieth not, which will be far worse than death. Yet still I pray for God's will to be done. You are too quick to judge me, and this shepherd. Had I stated 'Lord, "Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward (punishment, wrath, judgment) to the proud (unrepentant sinners) " without telling you it was from the Bible I have little doubt you would not have judged me for that as well.[/quote]

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[rkwright]

well this is a wonderful thread...

welcome "back" hcf and koc

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294277046' post='2197228']
Which God conveniently gave us free will and a place to go of eternal torment? Hell is hell, regardless of how you word it, trying to rationalize it won't help yourself. But post #78 seems directly contradictory to post #79, tell me if this sounds like a loving merciful and compassionate writer:
[/quote]

God gave us free will. I am unsure about the creation of Hell - I have always been under the impression that it was created for Lucifer and the other Fallen, that it was never meant for man until man introduced sin into the world - but it is basic Catholic theology that those who do not die in the friendship of the Lord send themselves to Hell.

You are comparing something I said to something Knight said. Perhaps you should compare my posts with my posts and his posts with his posts.

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1294277139' post='2197229']
well this is a wonderful thread...

welcome "back" hcf and koc
[/quote]

Thank you. It is nice to see some form of Catholic solidarity on a Catholic forum.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294277349' post='2197230']God gave us free will. I am unsure about the creation of Hell - I have always been under the impression that it was created for Lucifer and the other Fallen, that it was never meant for man until man introduced sin into the world - but it is basic Catholic theology that those who do not die in the friendship of the Lord send themselves to Hell.

You are comparing something I said to something Knight said. Perhaps you should compare my posts with my posts and his posts with his posts.[/quote]Perhaps the reason why I asked for you AND knight, why are you not understanding?

Thank you for not answering by the way...[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294277349' post='2197230']Thank you. It is nice to see some form of Catholic solidarity on a Catholic forum.[/quote]I think knight and you would be more comfortable in the place that will not be mentioned, where people think like you and would welcome such invitations of violence and injustice.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[HisChildForever]

It is very sad that you purposefully misunderstand what Knight and I have been discussing. As mentioned earlier, I would like for this to be a civil discussion, void of snarky questions and condescension.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294277634' post='2197236']It is very sad that you purposefully misunderstand what Knight and I have been discussing. As mentioned earlier, I would like for this to be a civil discussion, void of snarky questions and condescension.[/quote]I find it very sad that you have to play this game of "oh so mean mr.catholiccat" because I am asking reasonable questions in a reasonable way about comments that knight or you made, which apparently is being misunderstood and you both refuse to clearly clarify. So your only defense is "[i]you must be purposefully misunderstanding[/i]". So in your model of communication, if the other person doesn't understand and agree with you, clearly its not your fault its theirs. Product failure is always the fault of the consumer?

But I find nothing civil about this clear, intentional, and rash judgment of other members on phatmass, the casual dismissal of polite questions, or the condescending messages you send for anyone who doesn't agree/embrace your ideas. Do you really wonder why I think your a fanatic?

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat