Bomb Hits Egypt Church At New Year's Mass, 21 Dead

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294263710' post='2197114']Are you telling me that I pray for the death of sinners? [/quote]That is our concern about knight so far in this topic, who won't clarify his position, but rather has reaffirmed it. So your agreement to knight certainly does make that plausible.

But to be fair, the fact that any human being would hope to afflict any other person is horrifying. That isn't justice, its revenge.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294263940' post='2197120']
That is our concern about knight so far in this topic, who won't clarify his position, but rather has reaffirmed it. So your agreement to knight certainly does make that plausible.

But to be fair, the fact that any human being would hope to afflict any other person is horrifying. That isn't justice, its revenge.
[/quote]

I simply pointed out that, in the Psalms, the faithful call out to God for His judgment.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294264283' post='2197129']I simply pointed out that, in the Psalms, the faithful call out to God for His judgment.[/quote]Ah! Then you too must be curious to why knight wont join us in saying praying for revenge or death isn't cool?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294264346' post='2197130']
Ah! Then you too must be curious to why knight wont join us in saying praying for revenge or death isn't cool?
[/quote]

I am curious, what do you make of the following Psalm:
Psalm 82, in the Douay-Rheims, is called "A prayer against the enemies of God's church".

[b][16] So shalt thou pursue them with thy tempest: and shalt trouble them in thy wrath. Fill their faces with shame; and they shall seek thy name, O Lord. Let them be ashamed and troubled for ever and ever: and let them be confounded and perish. And let them know that the Lord is thy name: thou alone art the most High over all the earth.[/b] - Psalm 82: 16-19

[KnightofChrist]

My views on praying for Judgment on the Wicked can be found here. If someone has a problem with that they have a problem with the book of Psalms, Psalms 93, the Divine Office and thus the Church.

"[b]THE Lord is the God to whom revenge belongeth: the God of revenge hath acted freely. 2 Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward to the proud.[/b] 3 How long shall sinners, O Lord: how long shall sinners glory? 4 Shall they utter, and speak iniquity: shall all speak who work injustice? 5 Thy people, O Lord, they have brought low: and they have afflicted thy inheritance. 6 They have slain the widow and the stranger: and they have murdered the fatherless. 7 And they have said: The Lord shall not see: neither shall the God of Jacob understand. 8 Understand, ye senseless among the people: and, you geniuses, be wise at last. 9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? or he that formed the eye, doth he not consider? 10 He that chastiseth nations, shall he not rebuke: he that teacheth man knowledge? 11 The Lord knoweth the thoughts of men, that they are vain. 12 Blessed is the man whom thou shalt instruct, O Lord: and shalt teach him out of thy law. 13 That thou mayst give him rest from the evil days: till a pit be dug for the wicked. 14 For the Lord will not cast off his people: neither will he forsake his own inheritance. 15 Until justice be turned into judgment: and they that are near it are all the upright in heart. 16 [b]Who shall rise up for me against the evildoers? or who shall stand with me against the workers of iniquity? 17 Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in hell.[/b] 18 If I said: My foot is moved: thy mercy, O Lord, assisted me. 19 According to the multitude of my sorrows in my heart, thy comforts have given joy to my soul. 20 Doth the seat of iniquity stick to thee, who framest labour in commandment? 21 [b]They will hunt after the soul of the just, and will condemn innocent blood. 22 But the Lord is my refuge: and my God the help of my hope. 23 And he will render them their iniquity: and in their malice he will destroy them: the Lord our God will destroy them."[/b]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294264674' post='2197132']
I am curious, what do you make of the following Psalm:
Psalm 82, in the Douay-Rheims, is called "A prayer against the enemies of God's church".

[b][16] So shalt thou pursue them with thy tempest: and shalt trouble them in thy wrath. Fill their faces with shame; and they shall seek thy name, O Lord. Let them be ashamed and troubled for ever and ever: and let them be confounded and perish. And let them know that the Lord is thy name: thou alone art the most High over all the earth.[/b] - Psalm 82: 16-19
[/quote]

Thanks, I agree with this prayer of Holy Mother Church.

[Mr.Cat]

So in response to real concern that their praying for revenge and death... reply by quoting the Bible and not answering the question...

Well! I can understand why your confused to why people like Sternhauser or I could be confused... Because this so clearly does not answer any of our concerns! Edited January 5, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[HisChildForever]

It is important to recognize that the faithful are praying for God to carry out His Holy Will. For instance, I will (and I do) pray for the salvation of a hardened sinner, and it breaks my heart that if the individual continues on his path his choice will lead him to Hell - but it is the Will of God that man be able to make this choice freely, and I must accept it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294264925' post='2197134']
So in response to real concern that their praying for revenge and death... reply by quoting the Bible and not answering the question...

Well! I can understand why your confused to why people like Sternhauser or I could be confused... Because this so clearly does not answer any of our concerns!
[/quote]

We are simply demonstrating that there are parts in Holy Scriptures where the faithful ask God to carry out His judgment upon the world. Are the Scriptures wrong? I think this makes for an interesting dialogue and I would appreciate civility in discussing it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294265055' post='2197135']
It is important to recognize that the faithful are praying for God to carry out His Holy Will. For instance, I will (and I do) pray for the salvation of a hardened sinner, and it breaks my heart that if the individual continues on his path his choice will lead him to Hell - but it is the Will of God that man be able to make this choice freely, and I must accept it.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294265157' post='2197137']
We are simply demonstrating that there are parts in Holy Scriptures where the faithful ask God to carry out His judgment upon the world. Are the Scriptures wrong? I think this makes for an interesting dialogue and I would appreciate civility in discussing it.
[/quote]

Again I agree.

[Mr.Cat]

I have been more than civil, you are weaseling around answering, the question can be answered in less than three letters. Forgive me for being a bit confused by why someone would go to such great lengths from giving a direct, explicit, and clear answer. In my personal opinion, that isn't civil, and if this was a court of law you would be held in contempt of court.

But this isnt a court, this is more idle curiosity to why someone would pray for revenge and death, or why they wouldn't clarify that isn't what they meant.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294265638' post='2197144']
I have been more than civil, you are weaseling around answering, the question can be answered in less than three letters. Forgive me for being a bit confused by why someone would go to such great lengths from giving a direct, explicit, and clear answer. In my personal opinion, that isn't civil, and if this was a court of law you would be held in contempt of court.

But this isnt a court, this is more idle curiosity to why someone would pray for revenge and death, or why they wouldn't clarify that isn't what they meant.
[/quote]

I already stated that I do not, and I have never, prayed for the death of a human being. I also distinguished between praying for the death of a human being and praying for God's Will to be done. Only a sick person would pray for the death of another.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294265798' post='2197147']I already stated that I do not, and I have never, prayed for the death of a human being. I also distinguished between praying for the death of a human being and praying for God's Will to be done. Only a sick person would pray for the death of another.[/quote]Okay, does knight agree with that? Thats the question...

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Sternhauser]

[quote]"[b]THE Lord is the God to whom revenge belongeth: the God of revenge hath acted freely. 2 Lift up thyself, thou that judgest the earth: render a reward to the proud.[/b] 3 How long shall sinners, O Lord: how long shall sinners glory? 4 Shall they utter, and speak iniquity: shall all speak who work injustice? 5 Thy people, O Lord, they have brought low: and they have afflicted thy inheritance. 6 They have slain the widow and the stranger: and they have murdered the fatherless. 7 And they have said: The Lord shall not see: neither shall the God of Jacob understand. 8 Understand, ye senseless among the people: and, you geniuses, be wise at last. 9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? or he that formed the eye, doth he not consider? 10 He that chastiseth nations, shall he not rebuke: he that teacheth man knowledge? 11 The Lord knoweth the thoughts of men, that they are vain. 12 Blessed is the man whom thou shalt instruct, O Lord: and shalt teach him out of thy law. 13 That thou mayst give him rest from the evil days: till a pit be dug for the wicked. 14 For the Lord will not cast off his people: neither will he forsake his own inheritance. 15 Until justice be turned into judgment: and they that are near it are all the upright in heart. 16 [b]Who shall rise up for me against the evildoers? or who shall stand with me against the workers of iniquity? 17 Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in hell.[/b] 18 If I said: My foot is moved: thy mercy, O Lord, assisted me. 19 According to the multitude of my sorrows in my heart, thy comforts have given joy to my soul. 20 Doth the seat of iniquity stick to thee, who framest labour in commandment? 21 [b]They will hunt after the soul of the just, and will condemn innocent blood. 22 But the Lord is my refuge: and my God the help of my hope. 23 And he will render them their iniquity: and in their malice he will destroy them: the Lord our God will destroy them."[/b][/quote]

Does the Psalm pray for violence to be done to the evildoer? "Render a reward to the proud" seems to be a call for justice. It also simply lists what God will do, especially in verse 16 to 23. It doesn't call for God to "Render them their iniquity," it doesn't ask God to "destroy them," as the Priest of God did. Is praying for the destruction of evildoers what [i]Jesus[/i] taught his disciples to do? Call down fire from heaven to destroy people?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294265863' post='2197148']
Okay, does knight agree with that? Thats the question...
[/quote]

Yes, he said "I agree" to two of my posts that explained it in full.