New Member

[Cam42]

Hi Cmom and Winchester....

Good to see you both....

[AudreyGrace]

I think it would be beautiful to share Christian beliefs with all those who have no idea who Jesus Christ is. PJ brings us good news... we all have faith that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, so we're all going to heaven! PARTY! FORGET GOOD WORKS I'M GETTING DRUNK. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif[/img] ....not!!!

Let's be more productive and focus our energy to bring the truth of a beautiful, united, holy, 1,977 year old Church to those who have no idea who Jesus is, and put our Bibles to good use rather than battle with them. It's rather tiring, isn't it?
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like3.gif[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293940464' post='2195856']
Hi Cmom and Winchester....

Good to see you both....
[/quote]
hey

[Starets]

Stormstopper, you are making the same errors that you made whejn you were posting as your other sockpuppets. For example, text duming. and forgetting the basic exegetical principle of "a prooftext without a context is a pretext"

[fides' Jack]

Hi pjrizzo,

You must forgive us. Most people here on PM love the Catholic Church with all their hearts, and while intending good, we can more-or-less maliciously attack those who would attack their faith in the Catholic Church. We forget that apologetics finds its core in charity, and in defending Holy Mother the Church by explaining Her truths, and not through attacking those who would find error in those truths. The idea that "the best defense is a good offense" does not apply here.

That being said, nobody here should be accusing you of lying. In fact, your goal seems to be a good one - to bring others to the truth you have seen. That's a worthy and noble goal, and it is not deserving of such accusations.

Others have already responded to your inquiry looking for a truth of the Catholic Church which adheres to your criteria. To those I would add all the dogmas regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary (e.g. the Immaculate Conception).

In brotherly charity, I would challenge you to tell me where in the Bible anything is mentioned about the idea of Sola Scriptura, or Scripture Alone. Most Christian denominations hold firmly to this rule. I would also comment that they seem to hold a contradictory notion; they say works cannot make one deserving of Heaven (I agree), but then they say that accepting the mercy of Christ is the only thing that can make us worthy of Heaven. Accepting such mercy is also a work - it is an action, in and of itself. How can we believe both ideas? They are mutually exclusive. To this I would respond that indeed we ourselves cannot, by nature of our stature and position in the scheme of things, make ourselves worthy of Heaven. In fact, even accepting the grace of Christ cannot make us worthy of Heaven. Only the grace of Christ can make us worthy of Heaven - nothing we do ourselves. We can accept that grace, however, but that acceptance holds no value to our future salvation other than the fact it is necessary in order to receive the grace that makes us worthy. As Catholics, we believe that we accept this grace through the Catholic Church, in Her sacraments. There is nothing in the Bible saying, "the forgiveness of God must be accepted inwardly, and not through sacramental means." There's nothing even implying that. Or maybe you've found something that I haven't.

I would love to continue a debate on this subject. If you'd like to continue personally, you may contact me through a PM email, and I'll give you my email address.

I will pray for you as you search for the truth, and I hope you will likewise remember me in your prayers for the same.


Sincerely,
Fides' Jack

[thessalonian]

pfrizzo,

Not sure why you bothered posting those quotes from Church fathers who were quite Catholic. None of those quotes disagree with Catholicism. We fully believe in the inerrancy of scripture and have no problem defending what we believe FROM THE Bible. I and 10 others on this board would be glad to go head to head on any topic you wish to discuss from scripture. We love the Bible. The problem however will be that you will tell us what the Bible means with words not straight out of the Bible and so will we tell you our Catholic faith with similar words. We both will of course quote scripture liberally and then expound upon it. What both you and I will use to expound upon will be the teachings that we hold fast to. I.e. the oral traditions we have been taught. This is what Paul was talking about in 2 Thes 3:15 "Hold fast to the traditions you have recieved, whether BY WORD OF MOUTH or in writing from us.". You of course won't admit that is what you will use because this passage is a contradiction to your bible alone theory that is NOWHERE found in the Bible itself, thus violating the rules of logic, creating a circular argument. I do hope you stick around for a while but I'm not guessing your will convert too many. Rarely on these boards when Catholicism is presented by those who know the bible against anti-catholics like you does anyone convert to your side. I have known countless examples where protestants have ended up converting to Catholicism when the distortions are illuminated with the truth. So hang around. I look forward to the dialogues. We need more like you here. Invite some over.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Staretz' timestamp='1293991026' post='2195922']
Stormstopper, you are making the same errors that you made whejn you were posting as your other sockpuppets. For example, text duming. and forgetting the basic exegetical principle of "a prooftext without a context is a pretext"
[/quote]

you do know how many million people are on the internet? a similar posting style, does not the same person make, and i have seen little similarity between this new poster and storm stopper. he for one, posted with much more bile.

also apparently one of the catholic members of this site invited him here. so its a bit rude to refer to pfrizzo as someone else.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[pjrizzo]

hello. Hope all is well and thank you for your response.
To help you understand what the Bible teaches about mankind's sin nature, you must understand the character of God. He is perfect love, mercy, grace, truth, and several other adjectives. But above all, as the seraphim cry continually (Is 6), he is Holy, Holy, Holy. Therefore, he can not simply overlook sin. If you have not live a perfect life from the day you are born until death, your sin must be paid for. No amount of good things you do, or religious activities can pay. Only the precious blood of Jesus, and his payment that you have trusted fully for your sin. Then, when you die and meet God, he does not see your sin, but the perfect righteousness of Jesus covering you. That is the only way to go to heaven. If not, you are judged for your own sin and are sent to hell. The Bible makes it quite clear. No purgatory, limbo, or any other nonsense.
Consider an earthly judge who aquits a criminal. Would he be fair? Loving? Of course not. How much more than, the God of all Justice.
Jesus said "repent and believe." I urge you, in love, to read and TEST the Bible to see if it proves to be true. Do not take my, or any else's opinion. Nothing matters but Truth. I have plenty of info. to share, if you would like, or just ask others who are seeking Truth. If you die trusting in a religious system like Romanism, you will be lost.
in Christ
PR
[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293867648' post='2195671']
Hey pj, welcome to phatmass! I'm fairly new myself, but I'm getting along.
I'd just like to mention that your bragging of your previous Church position was anything but Christian. Catholicism teaches humility, so maybe you weren't brought up all that well in the faith.
Here's something from the book of James that completely supports good works in cooperation with faith, showing that faith alone is not enough.
"So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' and he was called the 'friend of God'. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." --James 2:17-24

During the protestant reformation, after the New Testament was compiled, protestant leaders took it upon themselves to decide which parts of the Bible they liked. In some versions of the Bible, this book of James was taken out in order to maintain support of the more desirable (yet false) belief that faith alone is enough. This is tampering with the Word of God, and it is warned against as a grave and horrible sin.
As Catholics, we believe that Jesus set up a teaching authority through his apostles. Repeatedly in the Bible, he told us to "listen.." Jesus said to Peter, "Upon you, my rock, I shall build my Church." That is why, in our creed, we acknowledge our belief in the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church." Apostolic meaning descending from the Apostles.
"Rely not on your own understanding." Jesus set up a teaching authority which has been passed down through the Church to help us understand the God-inspired scriptures.

I hope you take a deeper and more personal look into the Catholic Church, both in the past and the here & now. On the surface, it does sometimes look like a mosh posh of meaningless symbols and tradition. But when you do research from sources other than Catholic-haters, everything can be unraveled and explained. I know this because I did the same thing.

Finally, it's sad that our Christian brothers and sisters feel the need to put down the Catholic Church simply to strengthen their own following. I pray that you find the same truth and peace of mind in the Catholic Church as I have.

Oh one more thing... if humans are evil because of original sin, and if we are not worthy of anything, that goes against the whole Christian belief of God's undying love for us. He views us as beautiful creations and he yearns for a personal and intimate relationship with him. Putting down his creations by demeaning the human race and saying anything other than we were created through God's love as his children whom he loves, is dissing the Creator- God himself. Analogy- if you tell someone that a certain painting smells of elderberries, you are dissing and disrespecting the painter. Although the portrait still has flaws, the artist is still proud of it, although sometimes wishes a certain aspect were different. Does that make sense?

Hope you have a happy, healthy, truthful New Year!
[/quote]

[pjrizzo]

hello. Hope all is well and thank you for your response.
My main point in studying Truth is that two opposing statements can not both be true at the same time. Virtually all Roman Dogma contradicts the Bible. I am happy to send a partial list to you. So who do you believe? My reason for leaving the Catholic cult, was that I was told not to question their doctrine, (for fear I should escape, I suppose).
It is not a church, denomination, religion, or anything but a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ himself that can guarantee heaven.
To help you understand what the Bible teaches about our sin nature, you must understand the character of God. He is perfect love, mercy, grace, truth, and several other adjectives. But above all, as the seraphim cry continually (Is 6), he is Holy, Holy, Holy. Therefore, he can not simply overlook sin. If you have not live a perfect life from the day you are born until death, your sin must be paid for. No amount of good things you do, or religious activities can pay. Only the precious blood of Jesus, and his payment that you have trusted fully for your sin. Then, when you die and meet God, he does not see your sin, but the perfect righteousness of Jesus covering you. That is the only way to go to heaven. If not, you are judged for your own sin and are sent to hell. The Bible makes it quite clear. No purgatory, limbo, or any other nonsense.
Consider an earthly judge who aquits a criminal. Would he be fair? Loving? Of course not. How much more than, the God of all Justice.
Jesus said "repent and believe." I urge you, in love, to read and TEST the Bible to see if it proves to be true. Do not take my, or any else's opinion. Nothing matters but Truth. I have plenty of info. to share, if you would like, or just ask others who are seeking Truth. If you die trusting in a religious system like Romanism, you will be lost.
in Christ
PR

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1293935170' post='2195830']
Hello, and welcome to Phatmass!
I hope you enjoy it here, and continue to learn about the Truth, along with the rest of us.

That said, I would like to make two comments on your testimony.
Firstly, I would like to say that I am pianist at my church, and I don't get paid a cent. Not a bent penny. I've done numerous other things with/for my parish, and haven't received anything except sincere thanks. If I had to depend on my pastor to pay my bills, I would starve.
Secondly, I would like to say that I [i]hav[/i]e been asking questions, and I [i]have[/i] gotten many answers... answers to many of the issues you obviously are having problems with (saints, priests, the difference between salvation and redemption). And every single one of these answers have only led me closer to the Catholic Church. And, lest it be said I'm biased or was instructed by someone who was, let me point out that the majority of my teachers give a testimony that is the reverse of yours: they once were non-Catholics, and through honest searching, were led to the Church.
Do not presume that you know the Truth and that others believe blindly because they have not searched, and do not ingore the answers and wisdom that they have gained in their searching. We are all students, in life and especially here on this forum.

Pax et bonum!
[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1294003238' post='2195961']
hello. Hope all is well and thank you for your response.
To help you understand what the Bible teaches about mankind's sin nature, you must understand the character of God. He is perfect love, mercy, grace, truth, and several other adjectives. But above all, as the seraphim cry continually (Is 6), he is Holy, Holy, Holy. Therefore, he can not simply overlook sin. If you have not live a perfect life from the day you are born until death, your sin must be paid for. No amount of good things you do, or religious activities can pay. Only the precious blood of Jesus, and his payment that you have trusted fully for your sin. Then, when you die and meet God, he does not see your sin, but the perfect righteousness of Jesus covering you. That is the only way to go to heaven. If not, you are judged for your own sin and are sent to hell. The Bible makes it quite clear. No purgatory, limbo, or any other nonsense.
Consider an earthly judge who aquits a criminal. Would he be fair? Loving? Of course not. How much more than, the God of all Justice.
Jesus said "repent and believe." I urge you, in love, to read and TEST the Bible to see if it proves to be true. Do not take my, or any else's opinion. Nothing matters but Truth. I have plenty of info. to share, if you would like, or just ask others who are seeking Truth. If you die trusting in a religious system like Romanism, you will be lost.
in Christ
PR
[/quote]

Where is any of that in Scripture? How do you have such an intimate knowledge of particular judgmemt? What you say has no basis in Scripture. It is simply your opining on what you think that should happen. Where is the certainty of the action.

BTW, I'm still waiting on your respsonse to my post about all of the dogmatic issues you raised....Thanks...

[Lil Red]

does pjrizzo remind anyone else of a little kid, when he doesn't want to hear something, sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting, "La la la! I can't hear you!"

or is it just me?

[thessalonian]

pfriz,

Sounds like your one of those once saved always saved types. We would certainly agree that relationship with Christ is key to salvation. Your mistake however is in thinking that relationship is apart from what we do and what we do has no impact on the outcome of our lives. I can for the life of me understand how one could read Romans 2:4-10


[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6][b] For he will render to every man according to his works[/b]:
[7][b] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;[/b]
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one [b]who does good[/b], the Jew first and also the Greek.

and add Math 25 about the sheep and the goats and come to such a confused conclusion. And I did not even mention James 2:24 and John 15 about the vines that do not bear fruit being cast in to the fire. Lots more passages as well. Your confusion can be corrected with a little understanding of Eph 3:20-21 which proclaims the grace of God working in and through us to his glory.

[20]

Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

That is how God can reward us for what we do, because it is the grace earned for us by his son on the cross working in and through us. Praise him! We do agree that one cannot become saved by doing these things. But once saved these things are like excercise to our spiritual bodies. We "get saved" God's way, through baptism. "believe and be baptized and you will be saved" Mark 16 and "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit". Acts 2:38. So one must come to Christ in faith, repenting of his sin, and then be baptized. Is baptism our work? Hardly. Peter says "you shall receive the Holy Spirit". It is the action of the Holy Spirit that cleanses the soul so that one can be called a child of God. An adopted son. That is what it means to be born again John 3:16.

I think I've given you enough to chew on except one more misconception/distortion you have presented. Purgatory is not us doing anything for our salvation. In purgatory it is the grace of God working on the soul directly to cleanse it of all impurity because as you stated everything in heaven is so HOLY!!!! NOTHING UNCLEAN shall enter we are told in Rev 19. Are you completely holy at this moment? Have you sinned in the last week? Last day, maybe hour? Well somehow between here and eternity even if you are "saved" these sin tendencies needed to be cleansed out of you. God has to do that, purgatory and his grace is the way. It only makes sense and 1 Cor 3:15 is the salient passage that says this happens. "if any mans works are burned up (meaning the good he has done has not outweighed the bad) he will be saved, BUT AS IF THROUGH FIRE". The burning fire of God's love working on the soul to cleanse it.

Much more I could say. Others I am sure will have a reaction toward your words so I will leave it at this.

God bless

Edited January 2, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294005014' post='2195973']
Where is any of that in Scripture? How do you have such an intimate knowledge of particular judgmemt? What you say has no basis in Scripture. It is simply your opining on what you think that should happen. Where is the certainty of the action.

BTW, I'm still waiting on your respsonse to my post about all of the dogmatic issues you raised....Thanks...
[/quote]


Funny how he directly quoted very little scripture when he says "scripture alone" is the truth. Just solidifying my point that he is only passing on protestant traditions of what is true. Sadly pride will likely prevent him from admitting his mistake of going over to protestantism.

Edited January 2, 2011 by thessalonian

[Socrates]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1294003605' post='2195965']
hello. Hope all is well and thank you for your response.
My main point in studying Truth is that two opposing statements can not both be true at the same time. Virtually all Roman Dogma contradicts the Bible. I am happy to send a partial list to you. So who do you believe? My reason for leaving the Catholic cult, was that I was told not to question their doctrine, (for fear I should escape, I suppose).
It is not a church, denomination, religion, or anything but a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ himself that can guarantee heaven.
To help you understand what the Bible teaches about our sin nature, you must understand the character of God. He is perfect love, mercy, grace, truth, and several other adjectives. But above all, as the seraphim cry continually (Is 6), he is Holy, Holy, Holy. Therefore, he can not simply overlook sin. If you have not live a perfect life from the day you are born until death, your sin must be paid for. No amount of good things you do, or religious activities can pay. Only the precious blood of Jesus, and his payment that you have trusted fully for your sin. Then, when you die and meet God, he does not see your sin, but the perfect righteousness of Jesus covering you. That is the only way to go to heaven. If not, you are judged for your own sin and are sent to hell. The Bible makes it quite clear. No purgatory, limbo, or any other nonsense.
Consider an earthly judge who aquits a criminal. Would he be fair? Loving? Of course not. How much more than, the God of all Justice.
Jesus said "repent and believe." I urge you, in love, to read and TEST the Bible to see if it proves to be true. Do not take my, or any else's opinion. Nothing matters but Truth. I have plenty of info. to share, if you would like, or just ask others who are seeking Truth. If you die trusting in a religious system like Romanism, you will be lost.
in Christ
PR
[/quote]
The Church "Ekklesia" is found many times in the Bible, yet the word "relationship" is not.

Which is not to say of course, that true Catholics do not in fact have a relationship with Jesus Christ - something which is clearly true of every Catholic saint.

Neither, I might add is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura anywhere to be found in the Holy Bible. It's a self-defeating dogma.

As the son of converts from "Bible-only" protestantism to Catholicism, and who's been raised in the Church, I can only say your laughable misunderstanding of Catholic teaching and your "testimony" which looks as phony as a three dollar bill, make me sincerely doubt you were ever Catholic.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Socrates

[Lil Red]

Jesus didn't leave us a Bible, he left us a church.