MIKolbe Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 worse than Iceman, Goose.. worse than Ice..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Hi! We welcome to phatmass- I'm also fairly new on here. I just wanted to say that (speaking for myself, and I feel most of the other people on here that I've talked to so far), that we do have a relationship with Jesus Christ, who is our Savior! Just because truth is found WITHIN Catholicism, doesn't negate the relationship that we have. To me, it seems like that is saying "I only have a relationship with X family member, but we don't "do" anything together".[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img] Look around the site. I think you'll see that Catholics here, around the world, and the Catholic saints definitely have a [b]relationship[/b] with Jesus... yes, it is an unfortunate thing that not all Catholics (or Christians of any denomination) know of His unending mercy and love. But religion is not the source of this tragedy. And we are all called to show Christ to one another- I admire you for bringing such conviction. But please be respectful of our faith. I hope the other phatmassers will show that same respect to you. There is truth in what you said about James... that actions flow out of faith- but we choose to [b]live out[/b] our our faith with "doing" something [b]FOR and WITH[/b] the Lord. That truth is found in our beautiful Catholic faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Before I go any further with this conversation....I have a simple question for pjrizzo. Is there any way that I will be able to prove to you that there is Truth in the Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjrizzo Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Comparison of several Biblical Doctrines with Official Roman Catholic Dogma. [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]There are dozens more and I will continue to update. [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The law of non-contradiction (to opposing ideas can not both be true at the same time) demonstrates that Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity can not both be true. In fact, if Biblical Christianity is proven true, then any other world religion or belief system must be false. Our eternal future (heaven or hell) is determined by what we believe.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Catholic Dogma[/b]: The following [i]De Fide[/i] statements comprise "Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (The Council of Trent, and Vatican II. These positive "articles of faith" have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size] [list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus taught His disciples that they were His desig­nated witnesses and spokesmen (Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; John 15:27). As His students, they learned His teachings so that they, in turn, might impart these principles to others. This was even true to the extent that those who believed and obeyed the disci­ples' words would actually be receiving Jesus Christ Himself (Matt. 10:14-15, 40; John 13:20). [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus also promised His disciples the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He would teach them addition­al matters (John 16:12-13), causing them to remember Jesus' words (John 14:26), and revealing to them the future (John 16:13b). Perhaps the key item is that, in all these matters, the Holy Spirit would lead the disciples to truth (John 16:13a). [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus additionally promised that the Holy Spirit would assist His students in their teaching. This twofold promise paved the way for the inspiration of the New Testament. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]As the New Testament writers penned their words, they recognized that they were inspired. They claimed Jesus' twofold promise. The apostles' teachings were based on the foundation that Jesus provided (Eph. 2:20; 2 Pet. 3:2; Heb. 2:3-4). They believed their words were inspired (1 Peter l:12b). This is especially evident in Paul's epistles. They were con­vinced that the Holy Spirit empowered both their teaching and their writing. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]The New Testament writers recognized that Jesus' promise of inspiration also extended to other writers, as well. For instance, I Timothy 5:18 notes two citations, referring to both as Scripture. The first is obviously drawn from Deuteronomy 25:4. Although the second is similar to certain Old Testament texts, it is nowhere quoted. Actually, this saying is the same as that in Luke 10:7 (cf. Matt. 10:10), spoken by Jesus. Comparing a quote from the Law to one found in the teachings of Jesus, and calling them both Scripture, is certainly significant, and for more than one reason. It shows some conviction that the existing canon of inspired texts, consisting only of Old Testament writings, is not the end of the matter. After all, if any writings are considered to be inspired, the words of Jesus should be included! Moreover, Jesus' saying is even placed on a par with the Law itself. Further, New Testament texts by other authors were also recognized. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Another example is found in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Paul's epistles are placed alongside other Scripture, thereby being given the same status. Additionally, Jude 17-18 seems to cite 2 Peter 3:3 (or a common text) as the words of an apostle.[/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus continually refuted the Pharisees by saying, “have you not read?, He refuted the devil himself with Scripture stating three times, “it is written”.[/size] [font="Century Gothic"] [/font] [list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- The Catholic Church was founded by the God- [/font][/list][font="Century Gothic"] man, Jesus Christ.[/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- The one true church is that which is founded on Christ [/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] himself and is comprised by all who trust Jesus as their [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] only Lord and Savior. Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20; [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] 1 Cor 3 : 11 ,16; 1 Pet 2:5.[/font] [list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of [/font][/list][b] [/b][font="Century Gothic"] all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Catholic Church, by appointing him [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.[/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- “you are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petras, [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] Peter’s confession of faith,) I will build my church” [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] Matt 16:18[/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Immediately after talking of the foundation of the church, Jesus rebukes Peter saying, “get behind me satan, you are a scandal to me for you mind the things of men…”[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter denied Jesus with cursing and swearing. Matt 26:69-75[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of faith. Matt 14:22-31[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocritical and disobeying the gospel. Gal 2:11[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter was married. Matt 8:14[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter had no authority of other apostles. All received guidance directly from the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4; Eph 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]James was the spokesman at the Jerusalem council (determining church practice) Acts 15.[/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [b][size="3"]4.[/size][/b][size="3"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. Mary is the Immaculate Conception.[/size] [size="3"] [b] Bible[/b]- all have sinned and fall short…..Rom 3:23[/size] [size="3"] No one seeks after good, no not one -Ps 14[/size] [size="3"] Death spread to all because all sinned- Rom 5:13[/size] [size="3"] All are conceived in sin- Ps 51:5[/size] [size="3"] I (Mary) rejoice in God [b]my savior- [/b]Luke 1:47[/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.[/font] [/size] [size="3"] [font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- body goes to the ground, spirit goes to heaven or hell- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Eccl 12:7; 1 Cor 15:36.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary is Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Jesus in v [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] salvation[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus alone is the Savior, redeemer of those who call on His [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Name- Acts 4:12. Mary was a humble woman used of God [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] she is now dead and can not be communicated with. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Lev 19:21; Deut 18:10-13, Lev 20:27. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] God is angered for idolizing the Queen of heaven- Jer 7:18- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] 21 [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- It is permissible to venerate images of saints; invoke [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession and to pray for the dead in purgatory.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Let no one among you consult the dead. It is detestable- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Deut 18:10-13. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Only one mediator between God and man; Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] man is destined to die once, then the judgment- Heb 9:27[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] A time is coming when all in their graves will rise, some to [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] eternal life, some to eternal punishment- Jn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Separation of sheep and goats- Matt 25:32[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Great white throne judgment- 20:11[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the sacraments of the new covenant are necessary for [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] the salvation of mankind.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Baptism remits all punishments of sin.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- we are saved by grace alone, not by works- Eph 2:8-10[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe…. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] you will be saved- Rom 10:9.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved-[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Rom 10:13[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Whosoever believes will not perish- Jn 3:16[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The righteous shall live by faith- Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By works shall no man be justified- Gal 2:16; 3:14[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By one sacrifice [b]He has perfected [/b]those who are being[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sanctified. [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the body and blood of Christ are truly, really, and [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Substantially present at the eucharist, during the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sacrifice of the mass.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus took bread and wine as symbols. Do this in [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] remembrance of me- Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He is seated at the right hand of the father in heavenly [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] places- Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession for us- Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-29.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus offered once for all time, a sacrifice for sin- Heb 10:9[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- by the church’s absolution, sins are remitted.[/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins-[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Heb 9:22[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The wages of sin is death- 6:23[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The soul that sins it shall die- Ex 18:20[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Christ himself, through faith in his blood, is the propitiation for [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] our sins- Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- rites and sacraments to be administered under the office [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] of the priest.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b] Bible[/b]- one mediator between God and man, Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We (believers) are a royal priesthood- 1 Pet 2:9[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He has made us a kingdom of priests to God- Rev 1:6[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We can come boldly to the throne of Grace…. Heb 4:16[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1293830399' post='2195535'] welcome to phatmass. For someone who claims to be catholic you haver a very flawed education of catholic teaching. The New Testament is a collection of documents put together by the Catholic Church, and is the sole guarentee of its authenticity. To believe in the Scriptures one must automatically believe in the Church, because the Scripture is a snapshot of the early church and teachings. It never claims to hold all knowledge demanded of it by those people that erronously hold to Sola Scriptura. I have read the entire Scriptue 5x and find it a deep and enriching fountain, but nothing that contradicts the Catholic Church from which it has been entrusted. " I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I'm also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Hi again! Question- just because you have picked out a single line from a single document in the catholic church, and your views on the bible have multiple points, doesn't mean we disagree. For instance: [quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293925882' post='2195781'] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size] [list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size] [/quote] We believe that the bible is divinely inspired (the Catechism: "[i]Sacred Scripture[/i] is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.") , we believe that is the the eternal word of God. Note that you have written- the "Canon" was determined by the Church. Which is true. Other books, claiming to be "gospels" were rejected because they were determined as heretical- and not divinely inspired- by the original apostles... to me, this sounds like the earliest apostles had to make decisions that ended up being traditions. Catholics don't disagree with the Bible...and if you bothered to look, you would find that our entire creed, mass, and catechism is centered around Scriptures. I'm so sorry that you feel this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293925882' post='2195781'] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Comparison of several Biblical Doctrines with Official Roman Catholic Dogma. [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]There are dozens more and I will continue to update. [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The law of non-contradiction (to opposing ideas can not both be true at the same time) demonstrates that Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity can not both be true. In fact, if Biblical Christianity is proven true, then any other world religion or belief system must be false. Our eternal future (heaven or hell) is determined by what we believe.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Catholic Dogma[/b]: The following [i]De Fide[/i] statements comprise "Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (The Council of Trent, and Vatican II. These positive "articles of faith" have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size] [list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus taught His disciples that they were His desig­nated witnesses and spokesmen (Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; John 15:27). As His students, they learned His teachings so that they, in turn, might impart these principles to others. This was even true to the extent that those who believed and obeyed the disci­ples' words would actually be receiving Jesus Christ Himself (Matt. 10:14-15, 40; John 13:20). [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus also promised His disciples the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He would teach them addition­al matters (John 16:12-13), causing them to remember Jesus' words (John 14:26), and revealing to them the future (John 16:13b). Perhaps the key item is that, in all these matters, the Holy Spirit would lead the disciples to truth (John 16:13a). [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus additionally promised that the Holy Spirit would assist His students in their teaching. This twofold promise paved the way for the inspiration of the New Testament. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]As the New Testament writers penned their words, they recognized that they were inspired. They claimed Jesus' twofold promise. The apostles' teachings were based on the foundation that Jesus provided (Eph. 2:20; 2 Pet. 3:2; Heb. 2:3-4). They believed their words were inspired (1 Peter l:12b). This is especially evident in Paul's epistles. They were con­vinced that the Holy Spirit empowered both their teaching and their writing. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]The New Testament writers recognized that Jesus' promise of inspiration also extended to other writers, as well. For instance, I Timothy 5:18 notes two citations, referring to both as Scripture. The first is obviously drawn from Deuteronomy 25:4. Although the second is similar to certain Old Testament texts, it is nowhere quoted. Actually, this saying is the same as that in Luke 10:7 (cf. Matt. 10:10), spoken by Jesus. Comparing a quote from the Law to one found in the teachings of Jesus, and calling them both Scripture, is certainly significant, and for more than one reason. It shows some conviction that the existing canon of inspired texts, consisting only of Old Testament writings, is not the end of the matter. After all, if any writings are considered to be inspired, the words of Jesus should be included! Moreover, Jesus' saying is even placed on a par with the Law itself. Further, New Testament texts by other authors were also recognized. [/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Another example is found in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Paul's epistles are placed alongside other Scripture, thereby being given the same status. Additionally, Jude 17-18 seems to cite 2 Peter 3:3 (or a common text) as the words of an apostle.[/size] [size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus continually refuted the Pharisees by saying, “have you not read?, He refuted the devil himself with Scripture stating three times, “it is written”.[/size] [font="Century Gothic"] [/font] [list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- The Catholic Church was founded by the God- [/font][/list][font="Century Gothic"] man, Jesus Christ.[/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- The one true church is that which is founded on Christ [/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] himself and is comprised by all who trust Jesus as their [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] only Lord and Savior. Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20; [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] 1 Cor 3 : 11 ,16; 1 Pet 2:5.[/font] [list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of [/font][/list][b] [/b][font="Century Gothic"] all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Catholic Church, by appointing him [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.[/font] [font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- “you are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petras, [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] Peter’s confession of faith,) I will build my church” [/font] [font="Century Gothic"] Matt 16:18[/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Immediately after talking of the foundation of the church, Jesus rebukes Peter saying, “get behind me satan, you are a scandal to me for you mind the things of men…”[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter denied Jesus with cursing and swearing. Matt 26:69-75[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of faith. Matt 14:22-31[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocritical and disobeying the gospel. Gal 2:11[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter was married. Matt 8:14[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter had no authority of other apostles. All received guidance directly from the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4; Eph 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.[/size][/font] [size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]James was the spokesman at the Jerusalem council (determining church practice) Acts 15.[/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [b][size="3"]4.[/size][/b][size="3"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. Mary is the Immaculate Conception.[/size] [size="3"] [b] Bible[/b]- all have sinned and fall short…..Rom 3:23[/size] [size="3"] No one seeks after good, no not one -Ps 14[/size] [size="3"] Death spread to all because all sinned- Rom 5:13[/size] [size="3"] All are conceived in sin- Ps 51:5[/size] [size="3"] I (Mary) rejoice in God [b]my savior- [/b]Luke 1:47[/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.[/font] [/size] [size="3"] [font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- body goes to the ground, spirit goes to heaven or hell- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Eccl 12:7; 1 Cor 15:36.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary is Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Jesus in v [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] salvation[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus alone is the Savior, redeemer of those who call on His [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Name- Acts 4:12. Mary was a humble woman used of God [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] she is now dead and can not be communicated with. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Lev 19:21; Deut 18:10-13, Lev 20:27. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] God is angered for idolizing the Queen of heaven- Jer 7:18- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] 21 [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- It is permissible to venerate images of saints; invoke [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession and to pray for the dead in purgatory.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Let no one among you consult the dead. It is detestable- [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Deut 18:10-13. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Only one mediator between God and man; Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] man is destined to die once, then the judgment- Heb 9:27[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] A time is coming when all in their graves will rise, some to [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] eternal life, some to eternal punishment- Jn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Separation of sheep and goats- Matt 25:32[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Great white throne judgment- 20:11[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the sacraments of the new covenant are necessary for [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] the salvation of mankind.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Baptism remits all punishments of sin.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- we are saved by grace alone, not by works- Eph 2:8-10[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe…. [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] you will be saved- Rom 10:9.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved-[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Rom 10:13[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Whosoever believes will not perish- Jn 3:16[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The righteous shall live by faith- Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By works shall no man be justified- Gal 2:16; 3:14[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By one sacrifice [b]He has perfected [/b]those who are being[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sanctified. [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the body and blood of Christ are truly, really, and [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Substantially present at the eucharist, during the [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sacrifice of the mass.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus took bread and wine as symbols. Do this in [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] remembrance of me- Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He is seated at the right hand of the father in heavenly [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] places- Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession for us- Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-29.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus offered once for all time, a sacrifice for sin- Heb 10:9[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- by the church’s absolution, sins are remitted.[/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins-[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Heb 9:22[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The wages of sin is death- 6:23[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The soul that sins it shall die- Ex 18:20[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Christ himself, through faith in his blood, is the propitiation for [/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] our sins- Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10.[/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- rites and sacraments to be administered under the office [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] of the priest.[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b] Bible[/b]- one mediator between God and man, Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We (believers) are a royal priesthood- 1 Pet 2:9[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He has made us a kingdom of priests to God- Rev 1:6[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We can come boldly to the throne of Grace…. Heb 4:16[/font][/size] [size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [size="3"] [/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [/quote] Ok, let's break this down....FIRST, pjrizzo. I am VERY skeptical of your biblical translation. I found inconsistency in your first postings. It is inconsistent not only with the Latin, but also with Koine Greek. I speak Latin fluently, I also can read Koine Greek, Hebrew and a little Aramaic (although that is limited). Next, your first statement about Bible....we don't disagree. However, please don't just cut and paste. Please type out your own thoughts. The formatting errors lead one to believe that they are not your thoughts.... Next, your statement about the founding of the Church. The Catholic idea of Church is wholly consistent with what you posted. Your scriptural posting is exactly how the Church views herself. Next, Petrine ministry....your scriptural passages are irrelevant. They do not speak to the fact that Christ did give Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. The reason that Christ was rebuking Peter was because he was trying to deny the Petrine ministry. And Christ was saying that if he didn't accept it, then he could get behind him. As we know, Peter did accept and the rest is history. Yes, Peter denied Christ, but then again, Peter was sinful, as is every Pope that has followed him. And Peter did reconcile and come to the defense of the Lord, going even so far as to lay down his life as a martyr. In Acts 2:14, who was it that stood up and led the 11? As for Galatians, the rebuking was because Peter would not eat with Gentiles. It had nothing to do with his Primacy as leader of the new Church. As far as Acts 15 goes, take a good hard look at Acts 15:7. Who is it that rises up and speaks? And what is it that James does in Acts 15:13-14? He supports Simon Peter. He acquiesces. Moving on to Marian dogma. As far as this is concerned, I will have you read, [url="http://www.ewtn.com/LIBRARY/PAPALDOC/P9INEFF.htm"]Ineffabilis Deus[/url], this is regarding the Immaculate Conception. I will have you read, [url="http://www.adoremus.org/MunificentissimusDeus.html"]Munificentissimus Deus[/url], this is regarding the Assumption. I won't take the time to quote what you can read. The whole idea of Co-redemptrix is not dogma, nor is it doctrine. It is not binding upon the faithful. So, if you believe it to be so, you're incorrect. Moving on to veneration of Saints and Praying for the dead....Praying for the dead is a long held custom, one which dates back as far as Christianity itself. I assume that your ecclesial communion has no funerals. As for veneration of saints, since they are with God, we can ask for their intercession. That is not praying to them nor is it contrary to anything that you post as biblical refutation. There is no conflict. Sacraments....every single Sacrament was instituted by Christ to bring about Grace. Baptism...Matthew 2:18 Confirmation...Acts 8:14-17 Eucharist...Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 19-20; 1 Cor. 11:23-25 Penance...John 20:22-23 Extreme Unction...Jas. 5:14-15 Holy Orders...Heb. 5:6; 7:11-25; Ps. 110:4 Matrimony...Matthew 19:6 That is enough about that. Sacraments are scriptural. Real Presence....Again, your translation alludes you. These are not symbols. Please show me where it says symbols. They are outward signs. They are provable signs through his action and ratified in his blood. We don't argue that the earthly sacrifice was offered only once. We have never argued that. What we do at the Mass is a re-presentation of the Bloody Sacrifice in an unbloody manner. This was called for by Christ in the above passages. Christ compels us to do this. Sacraments to be adminstered by priests....A royal priesthood is not a ministerial priesthood. You are confusing the two. Scripture is clear about Holy Orders. Look to Hebrews 5:1. It speaks of multiple priests. We know that this order is promulgated forever, by Hebrews 5:6. I would also have you look to Hebrews 7:23-25. pjrizzo....Your arguments hold no water. I also am really starting to question you biblical knowledge. If you had any real knowledge, you would recognize these passages as being valid. As it stands, the problem is that YOU interpret the Sacred Scriptures as YOU see fit. There is no objective Truth beyond yourself. And YOU are a fallible human person. I would implore you to study harder and then open your heart to the objective Truth of the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1293919798' post='2195762'] SOMEone's jealous... [/quote] umm no, i've gotten enough spam this week, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [u][b]pjrizzo:[/b][/u] tl;dr and learn to spell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293929878' post='2195807'] Next, your first statement about Bible....we don't disagree. However, please don't just cut and paste. Please type out your own thoughts. The formatting errors lead one to believe that they are not your thoughts.... [/quote] no. way. btw, welcome back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293930860' post='2195814'] no. way. btw, welcome back. [/quote] I know right? and Thanks, it's good to be back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293851749' post='2195636'] My reason here is to hopefully and prayerfully encourage you to ask questions, as I did, and not stop until you find the Truth". [/quote] Hello, and welcome to Phatmass! I hope you enjoy it here, and continue to learn about the Truth, along with the rest of us. That said, I would like to make two comments on your testimony. Firstly, I would like to say that I am pianist at my church, and I don't get paid a cent. Not a bent penny. I've done numerous other things with/for my parish, and haven't received anything except sincere thanks. If I had to depend on my pastor to pay my bills, I would starve. Secondly, I would like to say that I [i]hav[/i]e been asking questions, and I [i]have[/i] gotten many answers... answers to many of the issues you obviously are having problems with (saints, priests, the difference between salvation and redemption). And every single one of these answers have only led me closer to the Catholic Church. And, lest it be said I'm biased or was instructed by someone who was, let me point out that the majority of my teachers give a testimony that is the reverse of yours: they once were non-Catholics, and through honest searching, were led to the Church. Do not presume that you know the Truth and that others believe blindly because they have not searched, and do not ingore the answers and wisdom that they have gained in their searching. We are all students, in life and especially here on this forum. Pax et bonum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) This is the debate forum, not the giant text dump forum. How about you trim your pablum down to one idea, and if you're not interested in debate, then find a Text Dump forum. Edited January 2, 2011 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1293935170' post='2195830'] Hello, and welcome to Phatmass! I hope you enjoy it here, and continue to learn about the Truth, along with the rest of us. That said, I would like to make two comments on your testimony. Firstly, I would like to say that I am pianist at my church, and I don't get paid a cent. Not a bent penny. I've done numerous other things with/for my parish, and haven't received anything except sincere thanks. If I had to depend on my pastor to pay my bills, I would starve. Secondly, I would like to say that I [i]hav[/i]e been asking questions, and I [i]have[/i] gotten many answers... answers to many of the issues you obviously are having problems with (saints, priests, the difference between salvation and redemption). And every single one of these answers have only led me closer to the Catholic Church. And, lest it be said I'm biased or was instructed by someone who was, let me point out that the majority of my teachers give a testimony that is the reverse of yours: they once were non-Catholics, and through honest searching, were led to the Church. Do not presume that you know the Truth and that others believe blindly because they have not searched, and do not ingore the answers and wisdom that they have gained in their searching. We are all students, in life and especially here on this forum. Pax et bonum! [/quote] i should hope no one goes around paying with bent pennies. that's just mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293932198' post='2195818'] I know right? and Thanks, it's good to be back... [/quote] Bailey's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 GET RUNK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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