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[pjrizzo]

hello and thank you for your response. Certainly the Bible does not teach universal salvation and it does absolutely reveal the trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Numerous passages attest to that Truth.
Regarding the James "works" passage, here is what the Bible teaches. We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-10) but that the faith that saves us is never alone. That is, true saving faith is always accompanied by good works. We want to to good not to earn merit or to attain heaven, but becuase we are already guarenteed to go. I no longer live but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20) There is a fundamental change in your nature when you are born again. It is a supernatural work of God, not of man. You can't fake it, try and change yourself, join some denomination, or anything like that. You become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). The weight of sin and guilt is gone, you have a living, loving relationship with Jesus Christ, and you know the moment you die you will be with Christ (Phil 1:21; 2 Cor 5:6).
I urge you, make certain tonight that you know Jesus as Lord and Savior, and more importantly, that He knows you. In the most frightening sermon ever preached, Jesus himself said "many will call me Lord, Lord.......... but I will say depart from me, .........., I never know you" Matt 7:21
I will pray for you
PR

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293833428' post='2195549']
@ pj,

Welcome. Somehow, I think that you think that you're setting a trap. Kinda like teeing up a golf ball, waiting for someone to respond. Well....let me hit it down the fairway for you.

I'll try to respond as linearly as possible. First, you say that you believe only in the finished work and that it is faith alone that will save you. How do you know? Did God tell you this directly? This leads to all sorts of issues, but first and foremost, how do you have any certainty, outside yourself? You say that no amount of good works can earn forgiveness. How do you justify James 2:17-26? That becomes a very difficult problem for the whole sola fide crowd.

The reason nobody challenged the Magisterium is that they accpeted and believed it, presumably (I can only presume they did, because I wasn't there). If they accepted it, there would be no reason to challenge it. That is pretty simple. Their job is not to convince you that their faith is strong, but rather it is for them to teach you that your faith is based in the Church.

Then you gave up a lucrative position in the local Church. I woul love to know exactly what it was, because being a musician for any local Church cannot be considered "lucrative." Lucrative is being and excecutive of a company, such as a president or CEO. Being an organist is not. Sorry to be blunt, but I think that you may be exaggerating a little, to try and prove a point. It doesn't fly with us, we don't really care about the money, because we all know that the money isn't really there. And if you think that $30K-$50K is lucrative, I have some oceanfront property in Missouri for you to invest in.

Sola Scriptura....who gave you the Scriptures? I'll go ahead and answer that for you. It was the Catholic Church. Prior to the Church codifying the Bible, there was nothing to determine what the Bible was. So, if you're truly Sola Scriptura, then you have to concede that perhaps the so-called Gospel of Peter could be divinely inspired, or the so-called Gospel of Mary, because prior to the codification, there were a myriad of books that were used. But pretty early on the Church, led by her bishops, determined that there were certain books that were divinely inspired and some that were not. So, I would love to know what makes up your Bible.

BTW, what is your source for Sacred Scripture? Because your translation of Matthew 15:3 is incorrect. It mentions nothing about "scripture." What it talks about is the commandments of God (mandatum Dei propter traditionem vestram). That is hardly Scripture. There wasn't a "Bible" during the time of Christ.

As for what the Fathers of the Church that you present, I agree with everything that they say regarding Holy Writ. They have not said anything that is inconsistent with Church teaching. Sacred Scripture is just as important to Catholics now as it was the day the Bible was codified.

So, I assume that by your statement that you only believe in Jesus for your salvation, that you are a unitarian now? Because it is only in the Trinity (the complete Godhead) that we are saved....oh, the Trinity fits your FOUR criteria. The Trinity is not mentioned in Scripture. The Trinity is not contrary. The Trinity is necessary and as far as being revealed during Apostolic times, it was understood at Pentecost, but wasn't defined until much later.

And how John 3:3 accomplished? Yes, by a work. It was accomplished by the Sacrament of Baptism. John 3:4. Your Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide betray you.
[/quote]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293850105' post='2195634']
hello and thank you for your response. I enjoy dialog with someone truly interested in Truth. Your statement about where the Bible came from is erroneous. As demonstrated by the words of Jesus, the disciples, many of the early church fathers, as well as Bible believing martyrs throughout history, the Word of God was written by God Himself, given through men (2 Pet 1:20) by divine inspiration, and discovered by the early church on the basis of apostolic authorship, universal acceptance, and Spirit authority. It is God's full and final revelation of all redemptive Truth. Take the time and effort to study koine greek and read the earliest manuscripts for yourself. Don't rely on my or anyone else's word. If you die trusting some religious system of rituals (baptism, communion, confirmation, last rites, rosaries, candles, holy water,) or other such nonsense, your sin WILL NOT BE PAID FOR and you will be in hell. Trust only in the finished work of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection to have fully paid your sin debt. Make Him your Lord a Savior. I don't know you at all, other than you are a fellow human being who is in great danger tonight. I will pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and your heart to His saving power.
saved by Grace
PR
[/quote]
i think Cam is one of the most educated and smartest people here. i'm sure he or someone else here knows koine greek.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1293840257' post='2195586']
That's why we're Catholic. The Big Bucks.

Join up, and you too can be rich and famous.
[/quote]
i made all my money, so i cashed out.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293851749' post='2195636']
hello. hope all is well. I appreciate your sense of humor. I obviously don't know any of you on this site, so my reason for writing my not be apparent at first. I feel no need to win any intellectual argument, nor to offend people who like me as a catholic, genuinely wanted to please God.
My reason here is to hopefully and prayerfully encourage you to ask questions, as I did, and not stop until you find the Truth". If I had died while practicing the catholic religion, trusting all the rituals, I would have been in hell, because my sin was not paid for. The sinless life, death, and resurrection of Jesus paid the debt I could not pay. Because He is my Lord (that means to do what he commands in Scripture) and Savior, when I die I can face the perfect Holy God covered by the precious blood of Jesus and His righteousness becomes my own. Halleluia!
Do you want to face God based on you being a "good person"? I am afraid that would be a tragedy for you.
The first sermon Jesus ever preached was "repent and believe...." Mk 1:15. You are in danger tonight if you have not done that.
bless you
PR
[/quote]
is it actually the truth that you were paid lucratively in the Catholic Church? and what do you consider lucrative? if you are lying about that, then i have a tendency not to believe people who stretch the truth or out-and-out lie.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293851749' post='2195636']
hello. hope all is well. I appreciate your sense of humor. I obviously don't know any of you on this site, so my reason for writing my not be apparent at first. I feel no need to win any intellectual argument, nor to offend people who like me as a catholic, genuinely wanted to please God.
My reason here is to hopefully and prayerfully encourage you to ask questions, as I did, and not stop until you find the Truth". If I had died while practicing the catholic religion, trusting all the rituals, I would have been in hell, because my sin was not paid for. The sinless life, death, and resurrection of Jesus paid the debt I could not pay. Because He is my Lord (that means to do what he commands in Scripture) and Savior, when I die I can face the perfect Holy God covered by the precious blood of Jesus and His righteousness becomes my own. Halleluia!
Do you want to face God based on you being a "good person"? I am afraid that would be a tragedy for you.
The first sermon Jesus ever preached was "repent and believe...." Mk 1:15. You are in danger tonight if you have not done that.
bless you
PR
[/quote]
The reason we who are catholic at phatmass ARE catholic is because we already asked the questions and found the Truth- which resides in the Catholic Church, I trust the Church which scripture calls the pillar of Truth
My description of the New Testament is entirely accurate - the Church in councils decided what books were included in Scripture because she is the guarentee of the Truth.




" I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I'm also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

[Ice_nine]

I was raised Catholic, and then I saw the "light" and got all into that "it's not a religion, it's a relationship" jargon and was very anti-Catholic.


But when that got me absolutely nowhere I looked at what the Catholic church actually teaches versus the bs people spit about it and lookie where I am now. I know it's anecdotal, but hopefully you'll come around.

God bless you on your journey to the truth my friend

[AudreyGrace]

Hey pj, welcome to phatmass! I'm fairly new myself, but I'm getting along.
I'd just like to mention that your bragging of your previous Church position was anything but Christian. Catholicism teaches humility, so maybe you weren't brought up all that well in the faith.
Here's something from the book of James that completely supports good works in cooperation with faith, showing that faith alone is not enough.
"So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' and he was called the 'friend of God'. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." --James 2:17-24

During the protestant reformation, after the New Testament was compiled, protestant leaders took it upon themselves to decide which parts of the Bible they liked. In some versions of the Bible, this book of James was taken out in order to maintain support of the more desirable (yet false) belief that faith alone is enough. This is tampering with the Word of God, and it is warned against as a grave and horrible sin.
As Catholics, we believe that Jesus set up a teaching authority through his apostles. Repeatedly in the Bible, he told us to "listen.." Jesus said to Peter, "Upon you, my rock, I shall build my Church." That is why, in our creed, we acknowledge our belief in the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church." Apostolic meaning descending from the Apostles.
"Rely not on your own understanding." Jesus set up a teaching authority which has been passed down through the Church to help us understand the God-inspired scriptures.

I hope you take a deeper and more personal look into the Catholic Church, both in the past and the here & now. On the surface, it does sometimes look like a mosh posh of meaningless symbols and tradition. But when you do research from sources other than Catholic-haters, everything can be unraveled and explained. I know this because I did the same thing.

Finally, it's sad that our Christian brothers and sisters feel the need to put down the Catholic Church simply to strengthen their own following. I pray that you find the same truth and peace of mind in the Catholic Church as I have.

Oh one more thing... if humans are evil because of original sin, and if we are not worthy of anything, that goes against the whole Christian belief of God's undying love for us. He views us as beautiful creations and he yearns for a personal and intimate relationship with him. Putting down his creations by demeaning the human race and saying anything other than we were created through God's love as his children whom he loves, is dissing the Creator- God himself. Analogy- if you tell someone that a certain painting smells of elderberries, you are dissing and disrespecting the painter. Although the portrait still has flaws, the artist is still proud of it, although sometimes wishes a certain aspect were different. Does that make sense?

Hope you have a happy, healthy, truthful New Year!

Edited January 1, 2011 by AudreyGrace

[add]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293828595' post='2195526']
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]My testimony[/size][/font]
----------------------------
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]saved by Grace
PR[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Have you ever said the "Apostles Creed", [i]pjrizzo? [/i][i]do you even know what it is or appreciate its meanings?[/i] The Creed is the unifying symbol of the historical Christian faith that, among other beliefs, provides guidelines for the Trinity, Jesus' divinity, and the creation of the world by one God.

Someone with your background, if you are, as you say, you are, should be able to comprehend The New Testament .[i]with [/i][i]all[/i][i] of [/i][i]its many idiosyncrasies.
[/i]
I 'am sorry but I find it hard to believe that you are sincere.

[Winchester]

I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1293889320' post='2195679']
I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.
[/quote]

slammed

[Jaime]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1293889320' post='2195679']
I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.
[/quote]

that is brilliant. You should totally friend me on facebook

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1293905447' post='2195716']
that is brilliant. You should totally friend me on facebook
[/quote]
so he can spam your wall?

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293834040' post='2195556']

[/quote]

yes

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293907219' post='2195722']
so he can spam your wall?
[/quote]
SOMEone's jealous...

[Winchester]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1293919798' post='2195762']
SOMEone's jealous...


[/quote]
Green-eyed monster, Mav.