Female Altar Servers

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293942981' post='2195861']
whomever does it, i just wish they wouldn't wear tennis shoes or flip flops or other raggedy shoes. wear some decent dress shoes, for goodness sakes.
[/quote]

Making me self conscious about my feet now....

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1293999871' post='2195942']
Making me self conscious about my feet now....
[/quote]
it just a pet peeve of mine, lol. i sound like a crotchety old woman. lol

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1294000087' post='2195943']
it just a pet peeve of mine, lol. i sound like a crotchety old woman. lol
[/quote]

haha I understand, I often where flip flops to Mass, but then that's the culture I grew up in here in Beach town.....I promise that I wear a nice button up with slacks otherwise : )


My pet peeve (among others) at Mass, are more about people leaving Church before the closing song has officially ended....

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294000500' post='2195946']
haha I understand, I often where flip flops to Mass, but then that's the culture I grew up in here in Beach town.....I promise that I wear a nice button up with slacks otherwise : )


My pet peeve (among others) at Mass, are more about people leaving Church before the closing song has officially ended....
[/quote]

You're right. If they really had good taste in "liturgical" music, they'd leave before the song had begun. We are not supposed to inflict physical penances upon ourselves on Sundays.

My other pet peeve (just two today) aside from inane "liturgical" music, is how the organist invariably insists upon playing out the ending of the song longer than the notes indicate, leading to a really awkward finish with everyone ceasing their singing at different times. Always a cacophony. They're probably leaving early because they want to avoid the agonizing finish they know is coming.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2011 by Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294002035' post='2195950']
You're right. If they really had good taste in "liturgical" music, they'd leave before the song had begun. My other pet peeve (just two today) aside from inane "liturgical" music, is how the organist invariably insists upon playing out the ending of the song longer than the notes indicate, leading to a really awkward finish with everyone ceasing their singing at different times. Always a cacophony. They're probably leaving early because they want to avoid the agonizing finish they know is coming.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

hahaha well that too.

I always miss the music at FUS's daily Mass(s?) when I come home.

Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294002288' post='2195951']
Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?
[/quote]

You'd make a rotten Pharisee.

~Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294002439' post='2195952']
You'd make a rotten Pharisee.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Good.

[Cam42]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']
With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/
If a priest asked me to do any of those things, I would NOT. Because they are strictly forbidden. However, the Catholic Church says its okay for girls to be altar servers, so I respect the teaching authority over my own opinions in times when it comes down to it.

Altar servers don't preach to the parish community, so as far as Jesus only appointing men as preachers goes, that is still being respected.
Finally, I agree that the best and most ideal practice is for men to be altar servers. And if there comes a time in my parish that young men are encouraged to become involved in altar serving, I will happily stop altar serving for good. However, I think it is more respectful to have one girl altar server than to have none at all.
[/quote]

Ok, first of all, I want you to understand one thing about me. I am a zealot. I don't have a lot of patience for feelings. The Church has been damaged by letting feelings dictate what should be ruled by reason....this is an example. I don't apologize for being blunt, but to be honest, I wasn't really being blunt, I was just being honest. As for the whole challenge thing...if you didn't want to be challenged, you should have posted this in Open Mic. If you post something like this on the debate table, someone will call you out (a little advice from an old timer to a newbie). As it is, you got lucky and I responded. LOL!!!! I am known for being a hard charger and I won't back off. Being Catholic is all or nothing.

Next, I already affirmed that the Church allows for female altar servers, BUT (and it is a HUMONGOUS BUT) every time they say that females are allowed, there is immdediately a caveat stating that it would be better that males would serve. So, again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is necessarily the better option.

As for altar servers preaching.....you're confusing roles. I am opposed to having females lector, mainly for the same reasons that I don't like females serve. And while lectoring is not preaching, it is proclaiming and while allowed, again, I am not necessarily sold that it is a better option than having a male do it, because of the link to the ministerial priesthood.

All of this hinges on the ministerial priesthood. EVERYTHING that happens inside the communion rail is an extension of Holy Orders. Serving....Lectoring....Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion....they all are roles proper to males, by the fact that they are roles proper to the priesthood. Sharing in the royal priesthood does not entitle anyone to serve at the altar. It seems better that with all cases being equal that the ministering at Mass should be left to males, because they are more perfectly suited to it. Call me sexist, call me intolerant, call me whatever you like. Bottom line....if we are going to resurrect the priesthood, we need to start allowing males to serve at the altar and do what is most properly suited for them. If we keep emasculating male-centered roles in the Church, the number of vocations will continue to fall.

Encouragement for males to serve should not just come from the pastor. A great way to show that you support this would be to encourage males to serve and then let them take your place. It shows humility, charity, and finally it shows that you have a healthy respect for the vocation to the priesthood.

Also, I don't necessarily know if it is better for a female to serve, as opposed to nobody. Understanding of roles within the Church is an important concept. Also, if males are encouraged to serve, even if it is a few who are committed to doing this, then it is far better than simply letting something happen because it can.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294002288' post='2195951']
hahaha well that too.

I always miss the music at FUS's daily Mass(s?) when I come home.

Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?
[/quote]
yeah, my scale's from 1 (heretic) - 10 (super holy saint-like).

[Papist]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]Christ himself chose to limit the ordination of priests and Bishops to men only; consequently, the Church does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood or the Episcopate. Women cannot be validly ordained as priests or Bishops. Altar servers are not ordained, so girls could possibly serve at the altar. However, it is wiser and more prudent to restrict girls from serving at the altar, for the following reasons.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]1) Boys serve at the altar partly as a way to introduce youths to the priesthood, which is for males only. Currently, the vast majority of altar servers do not become priests. However, this trend can and should change. Boys should be encouraged to consider the priesthood from an early age. And they should be encouraged to become altar servers as a good first introduction to the priesthood. But if girls serve along side boys, the role of altar server will not be viewed by the children or their parents as an introduction to the role of a priest.[/size]

[size="2"]Now some say that the role of altar girl can be an introduction for the girls to the religious life, so that boys would see serving at the altar as a precursor to the role of a priest, and girls would see it as a precursor to the role of a religious sister. This view is incorrect. It is not the role of women religious to serve at the altar. Nuns are called to the consecrated life for prayer, self-sacrifice, and works of mercy. Nuns are not called to take those roles which are most fitting only for the ordained, but which do not absolutely require ordination. There are certain roles in the Church which require ordination, and other roles which, while not absolutely requiring ordination, are most fitting only for the ordained.[/size]

[size="2"]2) The altar servers assist a male-only priesthood. As a group, even though most do not become priests, the altar boys are a foreshadowing and a reflection of the male-only priesthood. By example, the altar boys teach that only men can and should be priests and Bishops.[/size]

[size="2"]Some may say that we should view the role of altar server as separate from the priesthood, since altar servers are not ordained. But those who serve at the altar serve along side ordained priests, assisting them closely throughout the holy Mass. The reduction of male-only roles to nothing other than those roles absolutely requiring ordination erodes the teaching of the Church on the male-only priesthood. Following this erroneous path would lead to a reduction in the role of the priest to nothing other than a dispenser of Sacraments. Such is not the will of God.[/size]

[size="2"]3) God intends men and women to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society. This teaching of Tradition and Scripture is not restricted, within the Church, only to the role of priests and Bishops, but to many other roles as well. In the family, the husband is the head of the family, not the wife; nor does the family have two heads, husband and wife. In society, it is not the will of God to have all roles filled by both men and women without regard to gender. Some differences in roles makes for a wise and orderly society.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]When girls serve along side boys at the altar, the teaching of the Church that men and women are intended by God to have different roles is contradicted by example. Children learn the incorrect idea that boys and girls, men and women, can and should have the same roles in everything. When only boys serve, children learn the correct teaching that some roles are for males only. The choice of males only as altar servers wisely reflects the wider teaching that not all roles are for persons of either gender. The use of both girls and boys at the altar contradicts by example this understanding of different roles based on gender.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]4) The Church must not be overly influenced by sinful secular society. The Church has teachings which come from Divine Revelation. But secular society also has its teachings, some of which are irreconcilable with Church teaching. One such contrary teaching is the idea that there should be no distinctions, no differences in roles, based on gender. The widespread and very recent innovation of having altar girls is not a reflection of the teachings of Tradition and Scripture, but is a reflection of the teachings of secular society. Although the Church does not absolutely forbid girls to serve at the altar, the choice of boys only as altar servers better reflects the teachings and traditions of the Church. This wise choice also undermines the false teaching of secular society that male and females must have the same roles in everything.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]5) There is a tendency in the parishes and dioceses today to over-hire women. Perhaps partly because women cannot be ordained, there is a tendency to permit or encourage women to be in the majority in every non-ordained role. This is seen in many parishes where most extraordinary ministers of holy Communion are female, where most lectors are female, where most parish council members are female, etc. It is also seen in parishes where the proportion and number of altar girls increases and that of boys decreases. The end result of this tendency is for women to dominate every role other than that of ordained deacons, priests, and Bishops. There is no teaching in Tradition or Scripture which supports this tendency; it is not the work of the Holy Spirit.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]This over-use of women in various non-ordained roles presents religious service as if it were primarily the domain of females. The result is that males tend not to see religion as a possible vocation, despite the fact that only men are priests. The use of altar girls further extends the roles of females in religion, also further undermining the view that men are called by God to be leaders of the Church.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]6) The Church has the authority to forbid females to serve at the altar and to choose to have only males as servers. For such has been the traditional practice of the Church. But the Church does not have the authority to forbid males to serve at the altar, and to have only female altar servers. Those who serve at the altar serve a male-only priesthood. Thus male altar servers are the norm, and female altar servers are the exception.[/size]

[size="2"]If every diocese and parish were to permit female altar servers, then this practice would teach by example that female altar servers are a norm, not an exception. How can a practice be understood as an exception if it is found in every diocese and parish without exception? Furthermore, such a practice of permitting female altar servers, if it were found in every diocese, would teach by example that it is wrong to have only male altar servers. The exception would then become the rule, and the norm would become prohibited. Such a disorder contradicts the tradition of the Church from the beginning and is therefore contrary to the will of God.[/size]

[size="2"]One last thing…if you want boys to stop doing something, make it a girl thing.[/size]

[size="2"]And then regarding seminaries…you want men to stop doing something, make it a gay thing.[/size] [/font]

Edited January 3, 2011 by Papist

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293786558' post='2195440']
I'm never sure what to think.. When I was a young girl, I went through training to become one, but then I stopped when I reached high school because my family moved and I became a lector instead. But recently, my parish's altar servers just... haven't been showing up! Unfortunately. Needless to say, word got out (thanks mom) that I know how to serve. So lately, if there's a lack of servers, I tend to be the go-to girl. I consider it an honor to serve in that way, but I have noticed that there are still some harsh feelings out there towards girl altar servers. For instance, one of my friends just received a new pastor into their parish, and he declared that there will be no more girl altar servers other than the ones already assigned.
In the pro-altar girl argument, it seems that in time of need, any altar server is better than none, regardless of gender.

In anti-altar girl argument, I feel like altar servers should be those discerning priesthood, for those who will someday practice the Mass themselves. And, priests cannot be women.

Any input, opinions, and references would be awesome
[/quote]


I don't think girls should be altar servers. Girl servers did not come about until [i]quite[/i] recently. They walked in the door along with the feminist agenda. The mentality is that the Church is anti-woman, and altar girls are just a relfection of that mentality and a way to weasel females into priestly (or as priest-like as possible) activity. Altar serving is traditionally reserved for young boys and seminarians, for good reason: to encourage/prepare them for the priesthood. You can't encourage a girl to be a priest. You cannot prepare her for the priesthood. So why act as though you can? Why encourage the liberal/feminist mentality? If we promise to "avoid all near occassions of sin" then why do we open ourselves upon to that sort of influence?
I suppose that, if there is absolutely no alternative, then a girl may serve. But this would be an extreme case, not the norm. It wouldn't be regular enough to form or feed a feminist mentality.

I'm a girl. I serve at Mass.... in the choir. And I serve just as much as any male altar server. Just in a different capacity.

Pax et bonum,
~Tally

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294002879' post='2195958']
Ok, first of all, I want you to understand one thing about me. I am a zealot. I don't have a lot of patience for feelings. The Church has been damaged by letting feelings dictate what should be ruled by reason....this is an example. I don't apologize for being blunt, but to be honest, I wasn't really being blunt, I was just being honest. As for the whole challenge thing...if you didn't want to be challenged, you should have posted this in Open Mic. If you post something like this on the debate table, someone will call you out (a little advice from an old timer to a newbie). As it is, you got lucky and I responded. LOL!!!! I am known for being a hard charger and I won't back off. Being Catholic is all or nothing.

Next, I already affirmed that the Church allows for female altar servers, BUT (and it is a HUMONGOUS BUT) every time they say that females are allowed, there is immdediately a caveat stating that it would be better that males would serve. So, again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is necessarily the better option.

As for altar servers preaching.....you're confusing roles. I am opposed to having females lector, mainly for the same reasons that I don't like females serve. And while lectoring is not preaching, it is proclaiming and while allowed, again, I am not necessarily sold that it is a better option than having a male do it, because of the link to the ministerial priesthood.

All of this hinges on the ministerial priesthood. EVERYTHING that happens inside the communion rail is an extension of Holy Orders. Serving....Lectoring....Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion....they all are roles proper to males, by the fact that they are roles proper to the priesthood. Sharing in the royal priesthood does not entitle anyone to serve at the altar. It seems better that with all cases being equal that the ministering at Mass should be left to males, because they are more perfectly suited to it. Call me sexist, call me intolerant, call me whatever you like. Bottom line....if we are going to resurrect the priesthood, we need to start allowing males to serve at the altar and do what is most properly suited for them. If we keep emasculating male-centered roles in the Church, the number of vocations will continue to fall.

Encouragement for males to serve should not just come from the pastor. A great way to show that you support this would be to encourage males to serve and then let them take your place. It shows humility, charity, and finally it shows that you have a healthy respect for the vocation to the priesthood.

Also, I don't necessarily know if it is better for a female to serve, as opposed to nobody. Understanding of roles within the Church is an important concept. Also, if males are encouraged to serve, even if it is a few who are committed to doing this, then it is far better than simply letting something happen because it can.
[/quote]

Thank you for everything. Looking back on this thread, I see how seriously most of you take this subject. I asked the question because I just didn't know what the truth about the subject was or how I even felt about it. Ultimately, I disagree with promoting girl altar servers for the reasons that everyone said: it should be reserved to boys to prepare them to be open to the priesthood and to respect what Jesus established within ministry of any type. Taking that into consideration, I plan on telling my parish priest (luckily we're fairly close) that I'm not comfortable serving on the altar anymore, and propose advertising it more to the young men in my parish.
I just wanna be a really good Catholic lol. Thanks everyone : )

[Cam42]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1294086200' post='2196215']
Thank you for everything. Looking back on this thread, I see how seriously most of you take this subject. I asked the question because I just didn't know what the truth about the subject was or how I even felt about it. Ultimately, I disagree with promoting girl altar servers for the reasons that everyone said: it should be reserved to boys to prepare them to be open to the priesthood and to respect what Jesus established within ministry of any type. Taking that into consideration, I plan on telling my parish priest (luckily we're fairly close) that I'm not comfortable serving on the altar anymore, and propose advertising it more to the young men in my parish.
I just wanna be a really good Catholic lol. Thanks everyone : )
[/quote]

As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294087127' post='2196219']
As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.
[/quote]
agreed.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294087127' post='2196219']
As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.
[/quote]

Ooooo no I wouldn't give him the "better Catholic" reason. I can see how that can be misconstrued as disrespect and everything.
I'm also not so sure that bombarding him and telling him I'm doing this to "be a better Catholic" would be humble of me to do lol.
Thanks for looking out for me though. I appreciate it alott.