Female Altar Servers

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1293923716' post='2195771']
I was an altar server for a few years, but when I got older, I also was a lector and eucharistic minister. One of the amazing things that comes from being an altar server is a new reverence for the Mass. I agree that there is much more "usefulness" of learning about the Mass for a boy- especially a young man discerning the priesthood.

But, I found great beauty in preparing the altar for our Eucharistic Lord. I think ideally they should be boys, but I'm not sure if we should exclude a young girl from serving the church (especially if she has a desire to do so... I am personally disheartened by kids who's parents have made them do it and express no love/reverence for the opportunity).

I do LOVEEEE something they are doing in our diocese. They're called Knights of the Holy Temple, and they are young men who have a true devotion and interest in serving at Mass. They also focus on daily prayer life and living by an "honor code". Many of them have gone on to be diocesan seminarians (and I think maybe a few of them are priests now). It makes serving "cool" for a high schooler again, I guess... and the little ones do look up to the older high school boys. [url="http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174"]http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174[/url] It's pretty awesome!!!!

Moral of the story- I'm also torn.
[/quote]

First, as an altar server, you should never be preparing the altar. That is reserved for an instituted acolyte or above. So, I think that to find beauty in an abuse is problematic. We cannot approach the altar in that way. We may present the water and wine to the celebrant so that he may prepare the chalice, but we are not doing that. And if you find great beauty in holding a glass full of wine/water, I would question why?

Second, if you think that it is more appropriate for a male to serve, then why would you not promote that, wholeheartedly? Do you find some sort of injustice in not allowing for a girl to serve at the altar? I presume this, because you state that you're not sure that you would exclude a girl from serving. Are you talking about particpatio activa (doing something physical) as opposed to particpatio actuosa (actually participating) being prime? If that is the case, then we can have a conversation. If not, then I would be happy to expound on the link above about Participation.

[Lisa]

Thank you Cam for your insight. Honestly, I had never heard of an instituted acolyte and am troubled that I may have been particpating in an abuse of the sacred liturgy.

[Lil Red]

whomever does it, i just wish they wouldn't wear tennis shoes or flip flops or other raggedy shoes. wear some decent dress shoes, for goodness sakes.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293824998' post='2195513']
What I will say is this. We have been misguided in our view of active participation. We have been duped by the liberals into the belief that if we don't do something in the Mass, then we don't participate. That has led to a sense of entitlement. With that entitlement, there is an incorrect view that females have somehow been "left out" if they don't get in the sanctuary somehow. This can be as a lector, or an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, or as a server. This is not authentic and frankly, it is embarrassing that females would be treated so shabbily. To authentically participate in the Mass is not to do something, but rather it is to worship Our Lord. This is most perfectly done, in the pew...where one can unite himself to the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary.[/quote]
but...but...but...i feel left out!

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293824998' post='2195513']I would propose that the partipation that is engaged in is participatio activa. Which is the lesser of the two types of participation. The other type is pariticpatio actuosa. It is actuosa that most closely unites one's soul to the Mass. [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/ArticleText/Index/65/SubIndex/120/ArticleIndex/35"]Participation[/url][/quote]
woah, Harry Potter moment there.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1293859951' post='2195646']
Good post. I don't have anything to add except a little anecdote:

My home parish allowed female altar servers until about seven years ago. Servers were dwindling and the male participation dwindling at an even faster rate. We got a new pastor who turned things around. He didn't do it with the best of pastoral care, but he did return the parish to all male altar servers. As of now, we have six-eight altar boys at every Mass, sometimes more. Some 40 boys altogether. Makes for a beautiful Corpus Christi procession.

The boys comes out of the woodwork when the girls are out and when the priest works to make the program a good one. The boys move along rank by age and skill. The little ones really look up to the older ones.
[/quote]
the thing is, we have to be conscious that boys/men and girls/women are wired differently. gee, whodathunk it? if boys/men don't see that they are needed, they won't step up. and girls/women have a tendency to take over.

in other words, i agree with you. lol

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1293923716' post='2195771']
I was an altar server for a few years, but when I got older, I also was a lector and eucharistic minister. One of the amazing things that comes from being an altar server is a new reverence for the Mass. I agree that there is much more "usefulness" of learning about the Mass for a boy- especially a young man discerning the priesthood.

But, I found great beauty in preparing the altar for our Eucharistic Lord. I think ideally they should be boys, but I'm not sure if we should exclude a young girl from serving the church (especially if she has a desire to do so... I am personally disheartened by kids who's parents have made them do it and express no love/reverence for the opportunity).

I do LOVEEEE something they are doing in our diocese. They're called Knights of the Holy Temple, and they are young men who have a true devotion and interest in serving at Mass. They also focus on daily prayer life and living by an "honor code". Many of them have gone on to be diocesan seminarians (and I think maybe a few of them are priests now). It makes serving "cool" for a high schooler again, I guess... and the little ones do look up to the older high school boys. [url="http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174"]http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174[/url] It's pretty awesome!!!!

Moral of the story- I'm also torn.
[/quote]
well, Altar Society anyone? you know, the ladies that actually took care of altar cloths and such for the parish? and what is better? to direct a young girl (who has a desire to serve) in an improper way or in a proper manner?

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293862426' post='2195651']
I will say that it is better for altar servers to be male rather than female. However, I am a lector and I don't do it for a "privilege" to be in the sanctuary. Don't get me wrong, it is a privilege. But in my example, the huge majority of my parish is old and unable to serve in any way. My mother brought me up telling me that it was an honor if a priest asked me to serve the Mass in any way. I won't altar serve unless the priest comes out into the church before Mass and asks me, in which case I feel the need to obey him. I lector because not many others in our Chuch will, not because I want to claim my position as a woman having equal rights as the male lectors.
I agree with your statements about the altar being an environment that better suits men, because Jesus appointed men as preachers in the first place. However, when the need arises, I don't feel that God will be upset if a woman had to take the place of an altar server, lector, or Eucharistic minister.
And believe me, I'd rather be in the pew worshiping during Mass anyways : )
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/amen.gif[/img]
[/quote]
well, that gets into a whole 'nother ball of wax about installed acolytes versus lay people reading the Scriptures.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1293925245' post='2195777']
Cardinal Arinze has a video with a section about this on youtube. He's quite against female alter servers for the same reason that you gave: Alter servers should be those thinking about the priesthood. I'm completely traditional and I adore keeping traditions like family traditions. It's a duty of mine, and other traditional Catholics, restore everything that was such as all male alter servers. Justly, it's unfair for women because, if they're alter servers, they might become close to the idea of priesthood and gain the desire of being a priest. We all know it's impossible for a woman to become a priest. I know of women that are now priests but they're obviously excommunicated.

However, alter servers are becoming harder to find. So, in the case where there's only a woman available, I'm not against it. If there's plenty of men available, then no, leave it to the men.
[/quote]
but train them properly!! please! so many parishes/priests provide no or very little training (actual training, not just go to the priest during such-and-such a time). such a sad, sad, situation.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']
Let me challenge you a little bit. It isn't about a necessity of "bodies." You feel that you have this sense of obedience, but is it obedient to engage in an action that is unjustified? Or is it tacit approval and participation in an abuse? If you pastor asked you to do a dance in the Processional, would you do it, knowing that liturgical dance is strictly forbidden?[/quote]
or for example, if a priest ordered the faithful to not kneel for the Consecration, you [b]should[/b] disobey him.

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']I find it hard to believe that so many men of the parish are aged or infirmed that they cannot assist at the altar, unless you assist at a nursing home. I think that your pastor has to do a better job of recuiting men. As an aside, that is what we are doing at my parish. While we have not reached that level yet, we are slowly moving toward the ideal that I proposed and support.[/quote]
i think more priests need to challenge boys to be protectors, to be knightly men.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293926334' post='2195786']Second, if you think that it is more appropriate for a male to serve, then why would you not promote that, wholeheartedly? [/quote]
and it would be a great way to catechize those who do not know better.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293943201' post='2195863']
the thing is, we have to be conscious that boys/men and girls/women are wired differently. gee, whodathunk it? if boys/men don't see that they are needed, they won't step up. and girls/women have a tendency to take over.

in other words, i agree with you. lol
[/quote]

This.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293942981' post='2195861']
whomever does it, i just wish they wouldn't wear tennis shoes or flip flops or other raggedy shoes. wear some decent dress shoes, for goodness sakes.
[/quote]
i harp on the servers at my home parish. i consistently say, "the only part of you that we can see (identifying, that is) is your shoes. why can't you wear something nicer?"

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1293943733' post='2195868']
This.
[/quote]
That.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']
Let me challenge you a little bit. It isn't about a necessity of "bodies." You feel that you have this sense of obedience, but is it obedient to engage in an action that is unjustified? Or is it tacit approval and participation in an abuse? If you pastor asked you to do a dance in the Processional, would you do it, knowing that liturgical dance is strictly forbidden?

I find it hard to believe that so many men of the parish are aged or infirmed that they cannot assist at the altar, unless you assist at a nursing home. I think that your pastor has to do a better job of recuiting men. As an aside, that is what we are doing at my parish. While we have not reached that level yet, we are slowly moving toward the ideal that I proposed and support.

And honestly, you say that you feel that God won't be upset, how do you know? As you say, Jesus did appoint men to be preachers.

Again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is a best practice.
[/quote]


With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/
If a priest asked me to do any of those things, I would NOT. Because they are strictly forbidden. However, the Catholic Church says its okay for girls to be altar servers, so I respect the teaching authority over my own opinions in times when it comes down to it.

I'm truly happy for your parish, and I wish my pastor would do more to encourage men to serve. There are alotttttt of elderly at my church. Old, Italian, stubborn and set in their ways, so they barely volunteer to help out. The truth is, my parish is suffering. I wish I could say otherwise. We only have one priest, we've cut down on the number of masses, and they've been discussing a merger with another local parish.
Altar servers don't preach to the parish community, so as far as Jesus only appointing men as preachers goes, that is still being respected.
Finally, I agree that the best and most ideal practice is for men to be altar servers. And if there comes a time in my parish that young men are encouraged to become involved in altar serving, I will happily stop altar serving for good. However, I think it is more respectful to have one girl altar server than to have none at all.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/[/quote]
well, you're new and Cam just came back, but you should realize that he's like that. whether you like it or not. (i've been on the receiving end in the past too).

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']I'm truly happy for your parish, and I wish my pastor would do more to encourage men to serve. There are alotttttt of elderly at my church. Old, Italian, stubborn and set in their ways, so they barely volunteer to help out. The truth is, my parish is suffering. I wish I could say otherwise. We only have one priest, we've cut down on the number of masses, and they've been discussing a merger with another local parish. [/quote]
that really, really stinks. i am very sorry to hear about that.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1293923716' post='2195771']
I was an altar server for a few years, but when I got older, I also was a lector and eucharistic minister.
[/quote]

Just a pet-peeve of mine, but the term "Eucharistic Minister" should only be reserved for ordained ministers because they are the normal/ordinary/regular ministers of the Eucharist. Acolytes or lay people who, under certain circumstances, happen to be filling in in the distribution of the Body and Blood of our Lord are more properly called "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" - [i]extra[/i]ordinary because they are not the normal or regular distributors of the Eucharist.

Also, someone may correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember, a lector is actually an office of one of the minor orders. These days, it is often used as a stepping stone to the permanent diaconate - being a lector is something that a person has been installed into. Readers at most parish Masses may be fulfilling the office of the lector by their actions, filling in as needed, but they are not lectors themselves.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1293986772' post='2195912']
Just a pet-peeve of mine, but the term "Eucharistic Minister" should only be reserved for ordained ministers because they are the normal/ordinary/regular ministers of the Eucharist. Acolytes or lay people who, under certain circumstances, happen to be filling in in the distribution of the Body and Blood of our Lord are more properly called "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" - [i]extra[/i]ordinary because they are not the normal or regular distributors of the Eucharist.

Also, someone may correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember, a lector is actually an office of one of the minor orders. These days, it is often used as a stepping stone to the permanent diaconate - being a lector is something that a person has been installed into. Readers at most parish Masses may be fulfilling the office of the lector by their actions, filling in as needed, but they are not lectors themselves.
[/quote]

sadly, it seems that no one knows the offices, much less what Mass is all about these days....

I miss the days when there was an altar rail, and a little gate to the Sanctuary that only the priest had the key for. Less traffic up in the Holy of Holies, and more definition of the laity and ordained ministers...there was never a blurring of those boundaries...