Sexual Attraction And Marriage

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1296572614' post='2207398']
sexual attraction is the same thing as attraction to someone's looks.[/quote]

Yeah ok, but this isn't narrowing it down for me. It may seem like I'm being nitpicky and difficult but, attracted to someone's looks? So if I, as a female, admire another woman's beauty either outward or inward and feel drawn to said person does that mean said attraction is sexual? I don't think so, or at least I don't think it [i]has[/i] to be. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions or maybe I'm over analyzing it but I'd like to know how one can experience sexual attraction outside of marriage in a licit way, and I don't think defining sexual attraction as merely physical attraction or attraction to someone's looks is adequate. To me it seems like substituting one vague phrase for another.

Thanks for trying though. I guess I'm uncomfortable with common attitudes around sexuality, and maybe that's just my issue, but it seems everything is cloaked in vague terms so we can all nod at one another and think we're on the same page without going into detail. But maybe it's just me who is so hopelessly dull that I can understand what is obvious to virtually everyone else.

[quote]lust is when you fantasize about doing sexual things to this person and/or sexual things like you using this person for your own sexual pleasures with no regard for them as a person. in your eyes they would be more like a sex object to satisfy your sexual needs.[/quote]

This is a little more helpful. The concrete example what I was looking for. But there are many concrete examples of lust that we can cook up with little effort you know? I get what lust is both conceptually and how it can play out in reality--whether lust in thought or in deed. My question is how is this fantasizing different from what you call "attraction to someone's looks." Like is that when you just look at someone and go "dang he/she is lookin' fine," and leave it at that versus "dang he/she's lookin' fine I'd like to get him/her alone . . ." Because if that's the case then I don't think the former necessarily has to be labeled sexual in nature.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1296582141' post='2207446']
[color="black"][font="Arial"][size="2"]Lust, like greed and gluttony, is a sin of excessive affection to physical things. Lust is an excessive affection to sexual activityand the physical pleasure it brings. One of Jesus' greatest concerns from His sermon on the mount (Matthew 5) is that we need to not treat people as objects,and lust does just that. Lust reduces a person from a whole being made in the image of God to a mere object of personal satisfaction. It leads us away from God and hurts our relationships with other people. Lustful relationships can never be enduring, satisfying and healthy.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

I already know this! I'm really starting to question my own communication skills because that's not what I'm looking for. I want to know where we draw the line with concrete examples of licit sexual attraction versus lust. Now within the context of marriage this is pretty easy to do. Using your spouse to simply gratify sexual urges is wrong, selflessly giving yourself to your spouse in the marital act as a gift of love is a-ok. But to me it's harder to draw the line between sexual attraction vs. lust outside the context of marriage.
[color="black"] [/color]
[color="black"][font="Arial"] [/font][/color][quote][color="black"][font="Arial"][size="2"]It is normal and healthy to be attracted to and appreciative of the opposite sex. Sexual attraction is not lust and is not asin. Recognizing the physical beauty of someone is not synonymous with lust.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

But it's abnormal and unhealthy to be attracted (which really means what? we throw around this word all the time do we mean the same thing when we say it?) and appreciative of the same sex? And recognizing the physical beauty of someone is not synonymous with lust, does that mean it IS synonymous with sexual attraction?

[color="black"] [/color][size="2"][font="Arial"]Maybe I'm just begging the question too much, but I don't know I'm just . . . uncomfortable. I can't bring myself to accept everything y'all are saying with a boatload of confidence. And again that's probably just my issue, but I appreciate you trying.[/font][/size]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1296602376' post='2207562']
Yeah ok, but this isn't narrowing it down for me. It may seem like I'm being nitpicky and difficult but, attracted to someone's looks? So if I, as a female, admire another woman's beauty either outward or inward and feel drawn to said person does that mean said attraction is sexual? I don't think so, or at least I don't think it [i]has[/i] to be. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions or maybe I'm over analyzing it but I'd like to know how one can experience sexual attraction outside of marriage in a licit way, and I don't think defining sexual attraction as merely physical attraction or attraction to someone's looks is adequate. To me it seems like substituting one vague phrase for another.

But it's abnormal and unhealthy to be attracted (which really means what? we throw around this word all the time do we mean the same thing when we say it?) and appreciative of the same sex? And recognizing the physical beauty of someone is not synonymous with lust, does that mean it IS synonymous with sexual attraction?

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[/quote]
What do you mean by the word "attracted"? How do you define beautiful? Do you mean you want to be with that person because they look good?
Attraction to me means I am drawn to someone because of some characteristic I find pleasing in some way, it doesn't have to be physical beauty.
I am attracted to my friend who happens to be female because of her great sense of humor. I am attracted to my friend who is male because we like music and computers. This means I enjoy spending lots of time with them, but not that I want to have sex with them.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1296604351' post='2207577']
What do you mean by the word "attracted"? [/quote]

That's exactly the problem I have. "Are you attracted to men or women?" is often a question used to determine one's sexual orientation but what does that word "attraction" actually mean. How I may define the word and how another may define it could be pretty different, but instead the nuances are typically ignored. Instead the phrase "sexually attracted" is throw around to alleviate the ambiguity when talking about sexuality but it only confuses me more. I was posing my question at papist who used the word "attracted" to ask what he meant by the word because while people use that word a lot to help narrow things down in the discussion of human sexuality, I don't think this particular word has the same meaning to everyone.

If that makes zero sense I apologize . But I would define attraction in the same way you have. "Attraction to me means I am drawn to someone because of some characteristic I find pleasing in some way"

[quote]How do you define beautiful? Do you mean you want to be with that person because they look good? [/quote]

I guess I was throwing out a hypothetical, but if you are drawn by someone's physical beauty, does that necessarily make such attraction sexual? I believe there's some psychological research that indicates good looking people have an easier time socially. I don't think anyone consciously says to themselves "gee that's a good lookin group of people, I think I'd like to be friends with them," but I certainly think physical appearance does play a big role in the social sphere even though it's involvement isn't as obvious as it is in the sexual sphere. Regardless if the common consensus is that: conscious attraction to outward beauty = sexual attraction, then I would disagree but at least the meaning behind this redundant term is clarified.

I'm trying to differentiate where attraction becomes sexual without crossing over into lust, that elusive middle ground I can't seem to find.

[quote]I am attracted to my friend who happens to be female because of her great sense of humor. I am attracted to my friend who is male because we like music and computers. This means I enjoy spending lots of time with them, but not that I want to have sex with them.[/quote]

so if you want to have sex with someone, is THAT what people mean by sexual attraction? If so is it OK to want to have sex with a particular person, because sexual attraction it has been said is not sinful. But to me I'm still kind of uncomfortable with the concept that wanting to have sex with someone is cool so long as you don't start lusting after them, and to me that's a very very thin line.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1296682626' post='2207894']
so if you want to have sex with someone, is THAT what people mean by sexual attraction? If so is it OK to want to have sex with a particular person, because sexual attraction it has been said is not sinful. But to me I'm still kind of uncomfortable with the concept that wanting to have sex with someone is cool so long as you don't start lusting after them, and to me that's a very very thin line.
[/quote]

Hey Ice_nine! I did read all of your posts - they were deep, challenging and yet funny! - and I think I generally understand you and that you could really use a friend who understands you in dealing with your struggles. I also think you have totally valid concerns! Let me try and be as simple as I can to start with.

First of all, as a youngster with a strong faith, your body will be a terrible source of confusion for you. The pure unwillingness to sin isn't enough to squelch those hurges... So which is it? Should you explore yourself, but then what is really too much? Is your body ready "for action" a lot sooner than the whole of you? I have no answer for you, yay! I can however tell you how I was able to draw the line in my own life and I think it is something you will benefit from in yours (and having this insight at a younger age, you'll probably do a lot less mistakes than the ones I made). But one important thing to remember from the start is that we are indeed born as sinners and our natural urges are too often selfish, even as a child. As time goes by, you'll also find yourself having much less anxieties about this.

It's true that the focus on "what turns you on" is new. The reason why people who experience same-sex attraction aren't comfortable with defining their "sexual orientation" is certainly related to how much they fantasize and the variety of their interest not being directed to particular male or female features (although there can be fixation as well) but to the exploration of their own self, their own desires, their own unmet needs - these have to do not only with your body, but with your upbringing and experiences as well. I mean, they experience a wide range of needs and desires that often aren't particularly related to something or someone, is all about how it makes them feel as they enjoy new things. Also, I want to say that it is far from unusual for young girls to start thinking they might be too close to other girls. The reason why does happens seems to have a lot to do with how women appreciate indirect sexual bonding whereas males have a more physical and direct attachment that plays in straight to sexual arousal. So it is understandable how defining "attractive" things for a girl can be quite complicated. This is revealed when you accept the working definition of "Attraction means I am drawn to someone because of some characteristic I find pleaseing in some way". Of course we may also speak of attraction as experienced by the enjoyable characteristics of our friends, in a non-sexual way, but the real deal is how, in a person (particularly women), one thing doesn't work without the other - you will hopefully marry someone who is also a great friend, if not your best friend. Does this make sense to you?

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1295078112' post='2200305']I realized something that was a bit of a revelation for me. As a Catholic I view sexuality in a radically different way than does that of the modern world, so why the hell do I keep trying to fit myself with a label that's been created in a post-freudian sex-obsessed world?
[/quote]

The labels we have in psychology today are a bit embarassing. There's really no empirical way to make sure what sort of theory is better. This is one of the reasons why I'm researching the foundations of a truly Catholic understanding of our psyche, our mind and motivations, especially our core positive and healthy (holy) traits that fortify us and bring happiness to our lives, our relationships. The psychology of healthy chaste people is something there's not really that much research of. Furthermore, a lot of psychological data comes from college students, young people, often at the wildest period in their lives! Certainly this can complicate things. It's also not just post-Freudian but post-Kinseynian, and both of them weren't that accurate.

Anyway, a big part of this matter is the understanding of what a person is. I'm reading John Paul II's "Love and Responsibility" that he wrote as a bishop (so you'd look for the author Karol Wojtyla). Seriously, get yourself that book. It will give you essential philosophical elements to discern what is truly giving oneself to the other and upon having that cleared out you'll be better able to interpret your experiences.

I've been through a lot of the same things you described, I think. The thing that helped me was really to focus on a relationship of true love, even through all the passion I wanted, it was all just fuel that burned until it made raw our mutual personal offering. Sometimes I would get this but the arousal and the will to "possess" someone got me hooked. But that was always there and it really allowed me to healthily free myself from explorations in sexual matters. And trust me, it could have been much worse, there was nothing holding me back other than digging deeper into my own heart, to realize what I'm worth and to direct my thoughts to the hope that is in one day finding someone to whom I can truly and wholly give myself to - which is what I really really wanted in the end, and most of all, in your singleness, that desire is met by the fire of God's loving mercy. He gets you. Just like so many have witnessed here, your flame can be tamed and it won't die, you don't have to fan it, not afraid of losing anything, just take heart in the Lord. It's beautiful and healthy. Don't panic. You need to "find" your heart and let it break because it didn't find your lover yet, trusting the Lord to sustain you with something else (open yourself up to prayer).

You have to seek answers with a great degree of caution since you do realize that you're prone to take pleasure in those explorations. You're saying you feel pressured by friends, right? Well bad company won't help one bit.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ExCorde