False Miracles And Such

[dairygirl4u2c]

so why doesn't one hear much about false miracles outside the CC? is it just cause there's no governing body as much as there are within the CC? there's always claims of false and real miracle within the CC, and to a secondary degree the Orthodox.
while ya don't hear of real miracles outside nearly as much... there surely are. so what about false?

Edited December 31, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i thought this was interesting given my thing with the Orthodox church

[quote]5. There have been many true miracles in support of doctrines that the Orthodox have (but not via an ecumenical council) forsaken: e.g., Eucharistic miracles with unleavened as opposed to leavened bread,{4} God endorsing the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas,{5} and the Θεοτόκος proclaiming her Immaculate Conception to St. Bernadette Soubirous.{6} Moreover, "major prodigies" with intrinsic apologetic value are absent outside of the Catholic Church, according to Fr. Monden, whose meticulous study of the issue is a must-read.[/quote]

and more generally on outside miracles
http://thaumaturges.blogspot.com/p/on-miracles-outside-catholic-church.html

[dairygirl4u2c]

i wonder if by 'intrinsic value' he means things like the eucharist?
i always said things like 'why don't ya see miracles of noncatholic sacraments' or 'if they just eat for their lords supper, magic pizza or something' (magic might be the wrong word, but)

[dairygirl4u2c]

lotta over information but intersting to one like me
http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2010/02/extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus-part-2.html

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1293757010' post='2195316']
so why doesn't one hear much about false miracles outside the CC? is it just cause there's no governing body as much as there are within the CC? there's always claims of false and real miracle within the CC, and to a secondary degree the Orthodox.
while ya don't hear of real miracles outside nearly as much... there surely are. so what about false?
[/quote]

Haven't been watching the televangelists lately huh? Now there are some "false miracles"!

[dairygirl4u2c]

"The reports of posthumous miracles, which have not been verified by anything close to such a trustworthy body as the meticulous Congregation for the Causes of Saints, are a priori extremely unlikely. According to the 2003 New Catholic Encyclopedia 9:669-670, while God sometimes works miracles outside of the Catholic Church to manifest His presence in certain events, support a doctrine that separated Churches have retained from the Catholic Church, or to increase the faith of individuals, He never works miracles in circumstances that could, with good reason, be construed as confirming a non-Catholic "religion as a whole or ... a doctrine" opposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church."

what are people's thoughts on this stuff?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1293768847' post='2195362']
Haven't been watching the televangelists lately huh? Now there are some "false miracles"!
[/quote]

to be more precise-- or actually to say what i mean. i meant miracles that deceive one to non truth. i'm sure some televangelists do actual miracles that could deceive people. but we have no specific reason to think most by far of those are bad.... even the CC says that noncatholics can achieve miracles. why would we assume they're bad just because they're not catholic?
perhaps the bottomline question... how would one gauge that if one wanted to assert a lot of those are deceptive miracles?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i thought this was interesting given my thing with the Orthodox church


Quote

5. There have been many true miracles in support of doctrines that the Orthodox have (but not via an ecumenical council) forsaken: e.g., Eucharistic miracles with unleavened as opposed to leavened bread,{4} God endorsing the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas,{5} and the Θεοτόκο ς proclaiming her Immaculate Conception to St. Bernadette Soubirous.{6} Moreover, "major prodigies" with intrinsic apologetic value are absent outside of the Catholic Church, according to Fr. Monden, whose meticulous study of the issue is a must-read.


actually. those miracles arem't all that telling. if we could assume the immaculate conception thing false. and/or that the orthodox just got something wrong... but that don't mean the CC is right. then we have an intersting situation.
i guess there aren't miracles that say 'i am mary-- i'm not immaculate' sorta like that 'major prodigies' stuff, and the 'there are no miracles that mislead' really.

[dairygirl4u2c]

*Isidore Tverdislov "the Wonderworker" of Rostov (May 14): (1) "It is not known where he accepted the holy Orthodox Faith, but he was raised in Catholicism."

it says he was raised catholic. i notice in the 'invincibly ignorant' sections it says how people can be such. but it doesn't say anything those who were raised catholic or know about the catholic church. yet, this guy is a 'wonder worker'. are they false miracles? they dont promote wrong doctrine or religion necessarily in particular. but it's curious that someone who might be damned allegedly does miracles of any variety.

"*Job "the Wonderworker" of Pochaev (October 28): (1) "Job was appointed the head of the Exaltation of the Cross monastery near the city of Dubno, and for more than twenty years he governed the monastery amidst the growing persecution of Orthodoxy on the part of the Catholics and Uniates." (2) "Job was an ardent defender of the Orthodox Faith against the persecution of the Catholics."

[quote]John "the Wonderworker" of Kronstadt (December 20): (1) "The Lord Himself is ever-present in His Church; why then a vicar, the pope? And can a sinful man take the place of the Lord? He cannot. There can be, and there are, vicars for the Tsar, for the Patriarch, but no one can be a vicar, a substitute, for the Lord, Who is the Tsar without beginning and the Head of the Church. Truly, the Catholics have gone astray. Suggest to them, O Lord, that those who affirm such things are foolish and laid around with pride as with a necklace. The most harmful thing in Christianity, in this God-revealed, heavenly religion, is the leadership of one man in the Church-for instance, the pope, and his supposed infallibility. It is precisely in the dogma of his infallibility that the greatest mistake is contained, for the pope is a sinful man, and O the disaster if he fancies himself to be infallible! How many great errors, destructive of the souls o men, has the Catholic, papal church thought up--in dogmas, in rites, in canonical rules, in the Divine Services, in the deadly and malicious relations of the Catholics with the Orthodox, in blasphemies and slanders against the Orthodox Church, in revilings directed against the Orthodox Christians! And of all this the professedly infallible pope is guilty, with his and the Jesuits' teaching, their spirit of falsehood, duplicity, and every sort of unrighteous means ad maiorem Dei gloriam (for the--alleged--greater glory of God)." (2) "The cause of all the errors of the Roman Catholic Church is pride and the acknowledgment of the pope as the real head of the church, as well as the belief that he is infallible. From hence all the oppression on the part of the western church arises. The oppression of thought and faith, the deprivation of true freedom both in faith and life - all things upon which the pope has placed his heavy hand; from hence come the false dogmas, from hence the duplicity and slyness in thought, word, and deed; from hence the various false rules and regulations for the confession of sins; from hence indulgences; from hence the distortion of dogmas; from hence the fabrication of the saints of the western church and of non-existent relics, not glorified by God; from hence 'the exalting against the knowledge of God' (2 Cor 10:5), and every sort of opposition to God under the appearance of piety and zeal for the greater glory of God. The pope and the papists have become so proud and have so exalted themselves that they have thought to criticize Christ Himself--the Hypostatic Wisdom of God Himself--and have extended their pride to the point that they have distorted some of His words, commandments, and ordinances which should not be altered to the end of this age: for example, His statement concerning the Holy Spirit, His commandment concerning the cup of His all-immaculate Blood, of Which they have deprived the layman, setting at naught the words of the Apostle Paul: 'For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till He come' (1 Cor 11:26); instead of leavened bread in the liturgy, they use wafers."[/quote]

Edited December 31, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]
"The anti-Catholicism of the great St. Alexander Nevsky, whom Ven. Pope Pius XII of Rome approved for veneration by Russian Catholics in 1940, is the stuff of legends and not history, as I will show in a future post."

What about the other Eastern Saints approved for veneration?
I think St. Seraphim of Sarov was very anti-Catholic...

How is this possible?


The following couple of pages relate the story that St. Francis of Assisi appeared next to Seraphim of Sarov in a vision to a Protestant woman and, pointing to Seraphim, told her that the true Church is where Seraphim is. This was not a true miracle in confirmation of truth.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I am still baffled about the supposed post-schism Saints up for veneration in the Catholic Church: especially because it is hard to find any accurate information on these Saints. For instance, I have found in an old Catholic store's catalogue literature on "Saint Seraphim of Sarov". How is it possible that we venerate someone who has been against the Church of Christ? If we go by the teachings of the ancients, then schism is one of the worst sins: and the post-schism Eastern "Saints" definitely are not "invincibly ignorant" when they they teach against the Catholic Church.

"means that before he reposed, St. Gregory Palamas must have repented of any anti-Catholic beliefs he previously expressed"

This might be true, but I suppose this will not sound really credible when stated in a discussion with Eastern "Orthodox" Christians. They will probably use the case to point out how "the Latin Church contradicts herself".

I have also asked "traddies" about the issue and the only response I got from them was their request to see any evidence from the AAS.

I have never heard of the story about the protestant woman btw. And I have found that some from the East deem it "good" to demonize Saint Francis of Assisi as can be seen here:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

Please keep us, your readers, updated on these issues.[/quote]



". The Reasons for the Formal Restoration
+Josyf Cardinal Slipyj the Confessor of blessed memory convinced +Francis Cardinal Seper of happy memory that St. Gregory Palamas died in the odor of sanctity and that the mystical theology of St. Gregory Palamas is indispensable to the Eastern Catholic tradition and Eastern Catholic piety, rather than antithetical to Catholic theology.{5} Since the learned Cardinal +Slipyj was unfailingly loyal to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, he must have had reliable evidence that St. Gregory abandoned his schismatic, anti-Filioque, anti-papacy stances before he died, or else Palamas could not be a saint,{6} since he had, for a time, knowingly and deliberately rejected the Catholic dogma of Filioque.{7} While this might not seem plausible to the Orthodox, I trust in the scholarship of righteous Cardinal +Slipyj and the acceptance of his findings by the Magisterium."

prob just mistaken about who can be saved. as far as the saint stuff-- they could still be saved and thus a saint, then, without problem even if he openly rejected a specific tteaching such as the filoque.

Edited December 31, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

maybe like medjugorje. that could be a miracle.

sure, it's usually only the catholic church that has miracles unique unto itself, and that seem like they might be 'good'. but it's also practically the only one that has 'bad' miracles too.
should we assume that adage that as one draws closer to the truth, demons pop up and such?
could it be all deception that throws the bone with 'good' miracles, but ultimately the bad ones show the truth? or some such.
satan appears as an angel of light, something 'miraclous' supernatural happens, but it's not of God....

what are we to make of the lack of deceptivev miracles in nonCC? or all hte deceptive ones within the CC?

Edited January 29, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='ipwnuathalo' timestamp='1294614096' post='2198346']
False miracles...you mean like Medjugorge?
[/quote]


What makes you say that Medjugorge is a site of false miracles?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Wow. This is a pretty interesting thread dairygirl.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1296489746' post='2207003']
Wow. This is a pretty interesting thread dairygirl.
[/quote]

Sarcasm! Illogical Gym, but it's lots of fun!