Oh Isn't It Wonderful - Elton John And His Husband

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293855103' post='2195643']
What is present with the Nuns is most certainly not present in this home of Elton John. God.

Lets list the issues here:
- No God in the home
- A lifestyle of mortal sin around the child
- The "creation" of the child against God's law
- Their own personal want to "have" a child like some want a puppy.

Feel free to add more, as this is not simply just about sodomy.

[/quote]
[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1293900561' post='2195704']
Interesting in every discussion you get with a non-catholic they MUST elevated and justify their own thinking on things they really know little about from a psychological/physical/medical/familial/standpoint and say lets go with it.
[/quote]
Saint Michael declares he's a catholic!

He apparently knows Elton on a very personal level.

Lets list the issues here: [u]OK let's![/u]
[quote]- No God in the home [/quote]
Says who? We are all sinners, Jesus associated with sinners citing the sick are in need of the doctor. God is omnipresent, he's certainly in my home even though I'm a sinner.
[quote]- A lifestyle of mortal sin around the child[/quote]
Once again how do you know? Have you been in Elton's bedroom or peering in his window. Even if you have, it's not a judgement you have the right to make, you should be more concerned about your own sins.
[quote]- The "creation" of the child against God's law[/quote]
Maybe! But the child was born and has life therefore it has the Holy Spirit and is a child of God. You have no right to treat it with contempt.
[quote]- Their own personal want to "have" a child like some want a puppy.[/quote]
Really! Peoples motivation for having children are none of [i]your[/i] business. When we pick up a child out of the gutter it matters not if it is the child of a prostitute or of a pristine Catholic family.
[quote]Feel free to add more, as this is not simply just about sodomy.[/quote]
More???? Do you actually know if sodomy is involved or is that a product of your own imagination? There are heterosexual couples who live in a non sexual relationship and no doubt there are many 'Gay' couples who also have just a love relationship.

I'm glad I'm not a celebrity and having people discussing my personal affairs and making judgements on me which is against God's law.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1293913331' post='2195740']
I'm glad I'm not a celebrity and having people discussing my personal affairs and making judgements on me which is against God's law.
[/quote]


If you announce that you as a male and another male have bought a child, then it is certainly not in anyway a personal affair.
and judging someones behavior is certainly not against God's law.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1293908239' post='2195725']
When I said Dr. Frankenstein, I was not trying to exaggerate. My bioethics class this semester scared the piddly out of me. There's more out there than IVF. There's GIFT, ZIFT, ICSI, IUI, TOT, LTOT, and some stuff that can't be boiled down to initials. ICSI is especially scary.
[/quote]


I will defer to your much greater knowledge than mine in this area. Which only validates the point I was trying to make. None of us really have an overall knowledge great enough to truly and rightly judge any of this stuff except with the Church as our guide. It is foolish to do so. In the end the judgment of the Church always comes out shining brightly. But the foo lish will never admit this.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1293913331' post='2195740']
Once again how do you know? Have you been in Elton's bedroom or peering in his window. Even if you have, it's not a judgement you have the right to make, you should be more concerned about your own sins. [/quote]
having homosexual sex or sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1293915389' post='2195745']
If you announce that you as a male and another male have bought a child, then it is certainly not in anyway a personal affair.
and judging someones behavior is certainly not against God's law.
[/quote]

Bought a child? is that what they call adopting now?







the deal about a child growing up in a "sinful" house is a crockpot full ofcrap. Every child, everywhere has grown up in a "sinful" household. You could even argue that Jesus himself did, as i dont recall Joseph being considered "clean of sin".

St Michael grew up in a sinful house, Cmom did, dUSt did, and i did too, and same with my parents before me.

but apparently being gay is just absolutely the sinniest sin around, and those households will forever be worse than those of us "normal" people.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1293913331' post='2195740']
Saint Michael declares he's a catholic!

He apparently knows Elton on a very personal level.

Lets list the issues here: [u]OK let's![/u]

Says who? We are all sinners, Jesus associated with sinners citing the sick are in need of the doctor. God is omnipresent, he's certainly in my home even though I'm a sinner.

Once again how do you know? Have you been in Elton's bedroom or peering in his window. Even if you have, it's not a judgement you have the right to make, you should be more concerned about your own sins.

Maybe! But the child was born and has life therefore it has the Holy Spirit and is a child of God. You have no right to treat it with contempt.

Really! Peoples motivation for having children are none of [i]your[/i] business. When we pick up a child out of the gutter it matters not if it is the child of a prostitute or of a pristine Catholic family.

More???? Do you actually know if sodomy is involved or is that a product of your own imagination? There are heterosexual couples who live in a non sexual relationship and no doubt there are many 'Gay' couples who also have just a love relationship.

I'm glad I'm not a celebrity and having people discussing my personal affairs and making judgements on me which is against God's law.
[/quote]
Did you ever get that audience with Pope Kennedy?

[thessalonian]

"More???? Do you actually know if sodomy is involved or is that a product of your own imagination? There are heterosexual couples who live in a non sexual relationship and no doubt there are many 'Gay' couples who also have just a love relationship. "

Get a grip sonny.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1293916305' post='2195749']
Bought a child? is that what they call adopting now?

[/quote]
That's pretty much how celebrities get them. Elton John could take steaming craps in the middle of the road, kick kittens into vats of acid and still adopt children for two reasons:

1. He is a celebrity.
2. He is gay, which means you must not deny him anything he wants or disagree with him or you are a homophobic bigot.
3. There is no third reason. You didn't read carefully.

[StMichael]

Why bother dealing with the facts when you can simply attack the poster?

Yes, we are all sinners. We acknowledge that. We do our best to avoid sin. We do not go out and kill, say we are a sinner and then simply carry on with more killing. With your definition, Charles Manson is simply a sinner and certain to be God fearing as well as God loving. Same for Mohammad Atta, etc. The act of homosexually is a mortal sin. Elton John is not citing he is not a homosexual, but declared himself in a union that is homosexual.

In our Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 2357:

"[b][i]Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. [u]Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/u][/i][/b]"

I do not have contempt for the child, nowhere have I stated that. What I have exception to, is in the disordered manner with which this child was brought to life.

Section 2376:

"[i][b]Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other.[/b][/i]"

Section 2378

"[i][b]A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception.[/b][/i]"

Please feel free to peruse Article 6, it might realign your aim:

LINK: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1293913331' post='2195740']
Saint Michael declares he's a catholic!

He apparently knows Elton on a very personal level.

Lets list the issues here: [u]OK let's![/u]

Says who? We are all sinners, Jesus associated with sinners citing the sick are in need of the doctor. God is omnipresent, he's certainly in my home even though I'm a sinner.

Once again how do you know? Have you been in Elton's bedroom or peering in his window. Even if you have, it's not a judgement you have the right to make, you should be more concerned about your own sins.

Maybe! But the child was born and has life therefore it has the Holy Spirit and is a child of God. You have no right to treat it with contempt.

Really! Peoples motivation for having children are none of [i]your[/i] business. When we pick up a child out of the gutter it matters not if it is the child of a prostitute or of a pristine Catholic family.

More???? Do you actually know if sodomy is involved or is that a product of your own imagination? There are heterosexual couples who live in a non sexual relationship and no doubt there are many 'Gay' couples who also have just a love relationship.

I'm glad I'm not a celebrity and having people discussing my personal affairs and making judgements on me which is against God's law.
[/quote]

Edited January 1, 2011 by StMichael

[Winchester]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293918286' post='2195756']
Why bother dealing with the facts when you can simply attack the poster?


[/quote]
That's my motto!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1293917541' post='2195753']
That's pretty much how celebrities get them. Elton John could take steaming craps in the middle of the road, kick kittens into vats of acid and still adopt children for two reasons:

1. He is a celebrity.
2. He is gay, which means you must not deny him anything he wants or disagree with him or you are a homophobic bigot.
3. There is no third reason. You didn't read carefully.
[/quote]

I love this.

[CatherineM]

I grew up in a sinful household, that's true. I live in one now. The difference is that I knew what the sins were. My parents never tried to convince me that their sins were okay or natural.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1293915389' post='2195745']
If you announce that you as a male and another male have bought a child, then it is certainly not in anyway a personal affair.

[/quote]
Bought?? You may be saying that the surrogate mother was paid [u]and I agreed that the method was a sin[/u]. All children have to be paid for either medically or if adopting, there are fee's etc. Buying a child sounds more like for devious intent. I didn't get that impression.
[quote]and judging someones behavior is certainly not against God's law.
[/quote]
Teaching people what the Church teaches is not against God's law. Judging someone is!
[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293916297' post='2195748']
having homosexual sex or sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin.
[/quote]
If I inferred it wasn't a sin somewhere, then point it out and I will change it.

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1293917373' post='2195752']
"More???? Do you actually know if sodomy is involved or is that a product of your own imagination? There are heterosexual couples who live in a non sexual relationship and no doubt there are many 'Gay' couples who also have just a love relationship. "

Get a grip sonny.
[/quote]

Did I insult you somewhere by childish name calling? I thought this was the debate table where people are allowed to have a view point.

What part did you have a problem with?
1/ The question of if there is evidence of sodomy or if it is here say. Elton's life doesn't interest me, has he actually admitted that they are sexually active or are we assuming it. Most probably they are, but still can we assume it and make a judgement?
2/ There are such things as platonic relationships which I know for a fact exist in heterosexuals and I'm suggesting the possibility that they may also exist in some homosexual relationships, so we need to be careful about accusations.
[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293918286' post='2195756']
Why bother dealing with the facts when you can simply attack the poster?

[/quote]
Sorry, I didn't intend to attack you personally if that's what it looks like. It's your facts and how you got them that I'm concerned with. It's just that I know how untrue media hype can be and the idea of trial by internet forum bothers me. When you've walked into a 'gay bar' and told the people there that they are sinners etc, then I will hold you with the greatest respect.

Elton may very well have had a child for the purpose of 'in your face' we can do what we like and would rather have a human than a puppy. But if that's the case give us your evidence, because it's a very severe charge.
My main complaint is that there are accusations being made without supporting evidence. All I have read is that there is a male couple who have brought about a child for apparently the same reasons that a heterosexual couple have them. There are certain aspects which are sinful, such as birth by surrogate mother. But comments that God is not present and the child is a pet is a bit uncalled for.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1293919698' post='2195761']
I grew up in a sinful household, that's true. I live in one now. The difference is that I knew what the sins were. My parents never tried to convince me that their sins were okay or natural.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure God loves you and is working in your house and you are not a family pet.

[Winchester]

Judging the state of someone's soul is beyond our abilities.

Writing breathless tl;dr that is judging violates the version of judging the aforesaid hyperventilator appears to support.

[Winchester]

We are not talking about some guy living a life of sin privately or normally. We are not talking about a woman arrested for adultery and facing stoning for a simple sin. Elton John is not attempting to simply live his life and stumbling along. He is opposing the moral order in which all Catholics should believe. He is part of a crop of culture warriors fighting not to accept that people sin, but to redefine what things are sinful.