Career Choices

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='rachael' timestamp='1293714075' post='2195185']
try some study abroad programs....
[/quote]
Out of college, haven't taken GREs, GMATs, or LSATs. Not enough money to comfortably do Birthright Armenia (You still gotta pay travel for that one and I think not be paid for 3 months beyond room and board).

[rachael]

how old are you?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='rachael' timestamp='1293716726' post='2195191']
how old are you?
[/quote]
Mid-late 20s. Graduated earlier this year.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1293454636' post='2194622']
In the long term, is it better to go with what is fun or what you admire? (This question is primarily aimed at career choices)
[/quote]
Work can be fun (or challenging, or admirable), and still not be meaningful. Testing roller coasters might be a fun job. Cleaning toilets might be an admirable job. But that doesn't mean they are going to be meaningful jobs FOR YOU. I think the true test of your work is whether it is "meaningful," at least, whether it is meaningful TO YOU. Sad to say, but it's hard to find meaningful work in our society. Even if you are in a job where you can utilize your talents, that doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to utilize them for meaningful work.

The question is how radically you want to live your life. Finding meaningful work often means having to make radical decisions that places certain mainstream achievements out of your reach. It's easier to do work that isn't meaningful. It usually pays better. But, you can make small radical choices in life, without totally avoiding non-meaningful work. It's a tightrope walk. Just be careful you don't fall of the rope and lose your soul.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1293718823' post='2195195']
Work can be fun (or challenging, or admirable), and still not be meaningful. Testing roller coasters might be a fun job. Cleaning toilets might be an admirable job. But that doesn't mean they are going to be meaningful jobs FOR YOU. I think the true test of your work is whether it is "meaningful," at least, whether it is meaningful TO YOU. Sad to say, but it's hard to find meaningful work in our society. Even if you are in a job where you can utilize your talents, that doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to utilize them for meaningful work.

The question is how radically you want to live your life. Finding meaningful work often means having to make radical decisions that places certain mainstream achievements out of your reach. It's easier to do work that isn't meaningful. It usually pays better. But, you can make small radical choices in life, without totally avoiding non-meaningful work. It's a tightrope walk. Just be careful you don't fall of the rope and lose your soul.
[/quote]
What is meaningful?

Note: I started college as an idealist snob, and have been told by my mom, old counselor, and a friend that I put too much responsibility on myself.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1293720529' post='2195199']
What is meaningful?

Note: I started college as an idealist snob, and have been told by my mom, old counselor, and a friend that I put too much responsibility on myself.
[/quote]
As far as idealism, I ate Chinese food last night, and my fortune cookie said something like "any compromise that sacrifices a principle is wrong." I thought that was the stupidest advice ever. If I followed that advice, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning. As I see it, sacrificing your principles is practically unavoidable. It's a matter of how much you are going to sacrifice them, and whether you are going to be honest enough to recognize when you do sacrifice them (and brave enough to say at what point you will go no further in sacrificing a principle).

But anyway, that's a good question, "what is meaningful"? I think that "meaningful work" will be different for each person. But in general, I would say that "meaningful work" is work that has a greater purpose than earning your daily bread or building the economy. It's work that has room for personality, for freedom, for decisions, for input. It's work where you are not a wage slave or a cog in an machine. What determines whether work is "meaningful" is not, I don't think, the type of work itself. You can do meaningful work in all kinds of different ways: manual labor, arts, science, etc. But I think it's probably the context of the work that is the main thing. Back in the 19th and early 20th century the image of non-meaningful work was factory work. Today, I think the image of non-meaningful work is probably working in an office. In many ways, working in an office means you're privileged...it means you aren't doing backbreaking work. Yet working in an office also sort of represents everything that kills meaningful work: that kills individuality, freedom, creativity, etc.

Everything in our society is controlled by forces that most people have no voice in (indeed, most people aren't even aware enough to know what these forces are). We have been formed to fit in to our "place" in society: whether that's in an office, in a school, in a professional group, etc. Meaningful work cannot survive in a society like ours, because meaningful work cannot be "planned" or "controlled." Meaningful work is people, with all their variety and paths. Teaching can be meaningful work, but in our society unless you secure your "place" in a school, you aren't allowed to work with young people. Our society does not trust people who want to do meaningful work. It only trusts people who do the work that the system wants them to do. The same is true with politics. Why are politicians so irrelevant in our society? Because there is no room in our society's politics for people doing meaningful work. There is only room for people who will fit into the professionalized role of "politician." Being a politician today is about doing what you have to do to stay in office. The Founders of the United States were politicians, but they were also interesting men. They dabbled in philosophy, science, art, etc. That's another reason why our society cannot foster meaningful work. Everything has been narrowed down into professionalized disciplines. Politicians aren't allowed to speak about theology. Philosophers aren't allowed to speak on politics. Nobody is allowed to speak on science (unless you're a "scientist"). How can society foster meaningful work when everyone is required to box themselves in to one discipline and not step outside of that box?

Edited December 30, 2010 by Era Might

[fides' Jack]

You mean there's a choice?

Seriously, there isn't always. Right now I'm in the only job I could find - I never thought growing up, or looking at "choices," that I'd be doing this now. But I'm doing it because it will support my wife and any kids we might have in the future. I enjoy it off-and-on, but any real enjoyment or happiness I get from it comes from the knowledge that I'm the bread-winner, as all husbands should be, in my opinion.

The only careers I could admire are those of service to God or country, and I'm not cut out for either of those. All that's left for me is to support my family. If I'm doing that, I'm happy.

Really that's all careers are - a way to support a family. I could look at any job: astronaut, novel-writer, super car test driver, lego designer, etc..., but any real happiness in life will come from supporting a family (and leading them to God), no matter how "fun" or "admirable" I might think a job to be.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1293734320' post='2195237']But anyway, that's a good question, "what is meaningful"? I think that "meaningful work" will be different for each person. But in general, I would say that "meaningful work" is work that has a greater purpose than earning your daily bread or building the economy. It's work that has room for personality, for freedom, for decisions, for input. [b]It's work where you are not a wage slave or a cog in an machine. What determines whether work is "meaningful" is not, I don't think, the type of work itself.[/b] You can do meaningful work in all kinds of different ways: manual labor, arts, science, etc. But I think it's probably the context of the work that is the main thing. Back in the 19th and early 20th century the image of non-meaningful work was factory work. [b]Today, I think the image of non-meaningful work is probably working in an office. In many ways, working in an office means you're privileged...it means you aren't doing backbreaking work. Yet working in an office also sort of represents everything that kills meaningful work: that kills individuality, freedom, creativity, etc.[/b][/quote]
Working in an office may pose challenges, but as you said, whether it is meaningful or not is not a matter of the type of work. A student may not be able to get the education he/she wants to do other meaningful work if not for a college administrator. A law client might not be able to take a case to court, even a very important one that affects the fate of many or deals with a great injustice if not for a law clerk and a legal secretary and a file clerk. A patient might not get the medical care that he or she needs if part of a file is missing and not noticed until too late. A company may have to fire people, reduce the income of people who live in poverty, and reduce the services/products that people like you and I use to make our lives work or make our lives better. We are all part of a greater whole of mankind, each one affecting the lives of those next to him if not the lives of those far away. When we see that, it brings meaning to our work, not by what we do but by what we see in what we do. Perhaps satisfaction may actually be a better way of deciding.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1293755696' post='2195305']We are all part of a greater whole of mankind, each one affecting the lives of those next to him if not the lives of those far away.[/quote]
Well, that's one way of seeing it, but I am not as positive about our modern society. I would say we are all part of a system that has us trapped. You say, for example, that "A student may not be able to get the education he/she wants to do other meaningful work if not for a college administrator." That may be true, but that is a ringing indictment against our society if ever I heard one. To paraphrase what you said, basically, it means that a young person's ability to do meaningful work depends on a bureaucratic administrator. The bureaucrat and the institution he serves thus becomes a sort of watchdog at the gates of hell: the people who go through those gates have no other choice, but at the very least we can recognize that they took the wrong wrong road and it lead them there.

[quote]When we see that, it brings meaning to our work, not by what we do but by what we see in what we do. Perhaps satisfaction may actually be a better way of deciding.
[/quote]
I don't "satisfaction" is really a good measuring stick, because being "satisfied" is, I think, a form of settling. A bureaucrat can be "satisfied" with his job: it may pay well, he may have favorable working hours, he may have a pension. But I doubt there are many bureaucrats who do meaningful work.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1293734815' post='2195239']
You mean there's a choice?

Seriously, there isn't always. Right now I'm in the only job I could find - I never thought growing up, or looking at "choices," that I'd be doing this now. But I'm doing it because it will support my wife and any kids we might have in the future. I enjoy it off-and-on, but any real enjoyment or happiness I get from it comes from the knowledge that I'm the bread-winner, as all husbands should be, in my opinion.

The only careers I could admire are those of service to God or country, and I'm not cut out for either of those. All that's left for me is to support my family. If I'm doing that, I'm happy.

Really that's all careers are - a way to support a family. I could look at any job: astronaut, novel-writer, super car test driver, lego designer, etc..., but any real happiness in life will come from supporting a family (and leading them to God), no matter how "fun" or "admirable" I might think a job to be.
[/quote]
I have a friend in his late 70s who gave me a good piece of advice on this. He has 5 kids himself, so he knows what he's talking about. He warned me about using family as an excuse, as a protective shell from the world. It's easy to go to work every day, go home every night, and insulate yourself in the name of being a family man. But family can easily become an excuse to avoid having to make tough, radical decisions in life. A family man is still a man. He can't efface his individuality just because he has a wife and children. You may be right that a career is just "a way to support a family." But in that case, a career ceases to be meaningful work, and is merely necessary work (and I don't disagree that necessary work is often necessary, as much as we wish we could do only meaningful work). But I think it is possible to do meaningful work and still be a family man. It takes a lot of courage, though.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Era Might

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1293758584' post='2195327']
Well, that's one way of seeing it, but I am not as positive about our modern society. I would say we are all part of a system that has us trapped. You say, for example, that "A student may not be able to get the education he/she wants to do other meaningful work if not for a college administrator." That may be true, but that is a ringing indictment against our society if ever I heard one. To paraphrase what you said, basically, it means that a young person's ability to do meaningful work depends on a bureaucratic administrator. The bureaucrat and the institution he serves thus becomes a sort of watchdog at the gates of hell: the people who go through those gates have no other choice, but at the very least we can recognize that they took the wrong wrong road and it lead them there.[/quote]
We create the system. The giant, disassociated, dysfunctional family of humanity does impact each other for better or worse in some way. A hermit uses the wood in a forest that affects the CO level however slightly in the atmosphere that blends with the air that we all breath and possibly affects visitors who travel through hiking or something. A hello on the street to a stranger may send a butterfly affect to impact how someone's mood and stress level is that affects how that person performs on a presentation or some transitory step in the conceivable effect. Any number of things can conceivably impact society. A person dies and no longer uses the same resources of air, space, demand for food and other resources any more, thus making those available to others. A person is born and uses those but may offer economic gain through efficient use of resources or providing resources the person has been enabled to do by virtue of opportunity and God-given ability. Any society will have an order to it if people have any sort of community. Any group will develop rules about how they operate and will have leaders how make decisions or must do such and such for others thus forcing reliance on others unless one chooses to operate in a different social context which requires a different social makeup of the population, either by change over time or by social relocation. A system is thus an inevitable result of a large society with a complex civilization. If such is truly evil, then it is a necessary evil for a complex/large society because because some form of it is what makes the society work.

Hence it is through the work of the bureaucrat that the student may be trained for what is supposedly a way to do something meaningful and subsequently through it help others in the society. If one administrative problem cannot be resolved, perhaps another institution will work. On a practical level, our society consists of may many institutions. It is through the work of someone, somewhere, somehow that another is empowered. Either one is dependent on the one who does that, or one is dependent on all, or one is dependent on none. While theologically, we are dependent on God and no others, God operates in a way that often provides through others. Consequently, operationally, one is dependent on one or more of the bureaucrats because of the role they play.

P.S. I like your reply to Fides.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Light and Truth

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1293497495' post='2194690']
Can you do more good as an economist studying small business development as it relates to policies and various resources in different countries and less developed parts of the US and what can be learned from one area to apply to the other, or as a civil rights/immigration lawyer volunteering with non-profits, working as an international lawyer at an international organization to help small businesses/designers export arts overseas?

On a side note, I want to be a part-time professor when, if God provides, I have middle school-high school children. I want to be a writer including comedy and probably a book on culture clumping inspired by observation and relating to white privilege. [/quote]


Wowwww. You have some REALLY specific ideas about what you want to do. Thats good. Better off than the dude who has no idea.
Thing is though, you and him have this in common: the first job you get is probably going to be, at most, tangenitally related to what you ultimately end up doing.
Most lawyers do not start off in law doing what they went to law school to do. Same thing with economists. Their "dream" career remains a dream for the first 20-30 yrs of their careers. This in addition to the great number of people who change careers, and their "dream" changes.

An example: a woman graduates with a public health major and wants to work on policy promoting better access to healthcare for poor children in Asia. She starts off in sales at a midsize company, selling ... aluminum gutter covers. She uses her health/sales experience to get into a sales position at a big medical supplies company. From there she moves into the public relations side of things, working in marketing and publicity. Goes back to school for a degree in management. Finally, 20-30 yrs into her career, she heads the "do-good" section of a for-profit pharma corporation. She overseas company sponsorships of charity events, and patient assistance programs, which improve access to her company's medications. She is actively involved in her company's plans for market expansion into developing countries.

Our heroine is not working on policy. She is not working for a non-profit. A part of what she does involves improving access to medicine for poor people; but not specifically children, not specifically in Asia. The good she does is mixed with shilling for a company. And yet she is happy and feels her career arc is allowing to fulfill some of her life-long goals. Perhaps in the future she will move into the non-profit world. Or perhaps she will turn in a completely different direction (Run for senate maybe?) Wherever she ultimately ends up, it took her a number of decades to get a job she really "wanted."

[Anastasia13]

I always thought I had to know what job titled I wanted to get one day. Otherwise, I might have started college in political science with an emphasis on international relations or something international, except I didn't know what I would do with it. Our Vice President at the time started in journalism, and I could let people know about things that needed to change, so I set about trying to become the Ted Koppel of print journalism. My low grades from living in the dorms was slightly discouraging, I am still a slightly below average speed reader (may have slight dyslexia, or at least had dyslexia as a kid), and I wanted something analytical, so I changed my major to the only science I thought I could do and eventually, in a more employable place of econ, finance. In place of or before becoming a professor of economics and internal analyst at a big company, I don't know what I should do or if I really want to do that for sure but I have to do something.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Light and Truth