Demonic Possession

[Chiquitunga]

Wow, long discussion here .. haven't read everything and I'm not sure what I can contribute, but I've seen someone possessed and it is very real. I'd rather not share much on an online forum about this, etc. .. but one thing .. when I was there I was praying Hail Mary's nonstop and the thing said through this person (who loves Our Lady) "I [i]hate[/i] Mary!" So keep on praying those Rosaries ..

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293430283' post='2194599']
Can a Catholic be possessed, especially after we've been baptized, confirm, and generally participate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. [/quote]

Yes, they certainly can. And in some cases God even allows holy souls to be possessed. [url="http://www.melkite.org/sa33.htm"]Blessed Mariam of Jesus Crucified, OCD[/url] was possessed twice. You can read about it in this book on her published by the Carmel in Eugene, OR - [i][url="http://aquerofoundation.com/id19.html"]Mariam, the Little Arab[/url][/i]

[tnavarro61]

Micah, I am gonna send you a book about Exorcism written here in the Philippines.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295845032' post='2203700']
Mark, meaning no offense, but perhaps you need to struggle a bit more. You completely misunderstood my words (un-capitializing God was completely unnecessary) and have tried to make them mean the exact opposite of what they mean. You have accused me of saying and believing that which I did not say and do not believe. Please, review my posts and my argument before we continue the conversation. You have misunderstood me.
[/quote]

struggle a bit more is definitately appropriate.
it's inherent in human language to misunderstand people, given ambiguities etc in discussion. but when someone is overboard argumentative, it becomes too much, even when it shouldn't be so easy to misunderstand.
also, it is a bit harsh, but as Nihil said, it's important to study logic. study the different types of illogic, focus on 'premise premise conclusion', think about how paragraphs etc and not just sentences flow that way. force yourself to use logic and it starts becomeing second nature.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295844747' post='2203698']
So, my argument in a nutshell:
She can remain possessed, because that is the consequence of her anger and she must face the consequence.
And, she cannot be held accountable for actions which happened during the possession because she did not will them (like someone with tourette's does not will their actions).
[/quote]

And my argument is

She can call upon Christ, even though she is possessed - and cast that demon into hell, and no demon can force her to do anything she doesn't already want to do and that is why she is still 100 per cent accountable for her actions.

According to your theology, it was okay for Judas to betray Jesus once Satan entered him!

I didn't misunderstand your argument, I just reject it for what it is, junk theology. Sorry if that offends you, but she can stop anytime she chooses to repent of her sins. She still has the power to call upon Christ, just like the one man who was possessed by legion could still run to Jesus once he saw him afar off! Being possessed doesn't mean we can't do the right thing!

As I said before, the story a demon can take over our bodies against our wills, and make our bodies do evil things that we consciously wouldn't want to do makes for great Hollywood movies and TV shows, but it really isn't the truth.

Edited January 30, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Mark of the Cross]

I think you are right with people of strong will and pure thoughts. But evil can exploit weaknesses. How many mentally ill people suddenly decide to kill innocent people? I doubt they really have any control over that because they don't have the mental faculties of reason to deal with it. Satan can also exploit a 'normal' persons weaknesses. I don't have any difficulty rejecting paedophilia because I have no leaning toward it, but I'm sure there are people who wrestle with their weaknesses but cave in because they can't get control. But certainly they do have the option of seeking help which may or may not be found. Many alcoholics wreck their lives before actually getting some degree of control.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295840325' post='2203669']
Here's the thing, and you might think this is splitting hairs, but that woman who was possessed as a child could have repented of being that angry, and gave it to God - she could still do that - than the possession would end. IMHO I wouldn't accept someone say I got so angry because I was possessed. I do not agree that she wasn't able to decide to forgive whatever transgression that happened, which would close the door to the demon that was possessing her. If she continued because of the anger the demon imbued her with, than it was because she was continuing to live in the sin of unforgiveness - because God will not forgive your sins if you don't forgive others.

[b]Possession can only happen if you are open to sin[/b] - be it you don't want to forgive someone, or you watch too many adult movies or the ultimate goal for a guy is to have sex with a million girls, or you go boozing out every weekend, ect, ect, ect - it always starts with something you decide to do or not do!
[/quote]

Please point out a person who is not open to sin, who does not suffer from concupiscence?

I can only think of two - Jesus and Mary. Even St. Paul had his 'thorn in the side' which God would not take from him. "For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. " Romans 7:19

The truth of the matter is that our faith and our baptism protects us from demonic influence, but by no means does the name of Jesus make us immune.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1296424475' post='2206774']
I think you are right with people of strong will and pure thoughts. But evil can exploit weaknesses. How many mentally ill people suddenly decide to kill innocent people? I doubt they really have any control over that because they don't have the mental faculties of reason to deal with it. Satan can also exploit a 'normal' persons weaknesses. I don't have any difficulty rejecting paedophilia because I have no leaning toward it, but I'm sure there are people who wrestle with their weaknesses but cave in because they can't get control. But certainly they do have the option of seeking help which may or may not be found. Many alcoholics wreck their lives before actually getting some degree of control.
[/quote]

I think what I am kinda confused about is the idea - what is out of control - because that's why I think the current idea of demonic possession - or at least how it is being presented to me in this thread - is really, really, really, really, really bad.

Yes, people can be out of control (I've been so in my life, but it isn't because of 'demonic possession - but because I was making bad decisions and went way out of control on me), but are they are they really out of control, i.e. - they can't stop and turn around and remove themselves from it - I believe everybody can, and nobody can tell me that someone is not accountable for their actions if 'they are 'demonically possessed'. Would you accept an alcoholic's explanation of - I was possessed by a demon and that is why I am innocent of becoming an alcoholic - it really wasn't me I didn't want to be an alcoholic - it made me into an alcoholic!

That is what I believe I am being told by others in this thread. I reject it - the reason the alcoholic became an alcoholic is they decided the solution of all of their life's troubles was at the bottom of a glass of beer - and maybe a demon got involved in that after they decided that - to influence that desire and make it stronger - but the person can still stop at any time, seek treatment, and get better!

The idea of - you're demonically possessed - and your body is out of control, and your mind is prevented from stopping your body from committing evil is Hollywood stuff, not reality - and that is what I am arguing against[b]. I don't think demonic possession doesn't happen, but to me it is the lie of a devil to influence a person to commit evil acts and the person can say no, stand against that demon and cast it to hell.

[/b] [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296428564' post='2206810']
Please point out a person who is not open to sin, who does not suffer from concupiscence?

I can only think of two - Jesus and Mary. Even St. Paul had his 'thorn in the side' which God would not take from him. "For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. " Romans 7:19
[/quote]

I can't think of any - other than Jesus. We don't have to debate the Mary thing - but you get the idea that I am presenting. Someone who is possessed is accountable for every single action they are doing, because I believe they are still making all the decisions, a demon might be spurring the emotions to keep it going - but the person is still 100 per cent in control of what they do.

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296428564' post='2206810']
The truth of the matter is that our faith and our baptism protects us from demonic influence, but by no means does the name of Jesus make us immune.
[/quote]

I can't think of what does protect people from demonic possession - except symbolically putting on the helmet of salvation by saying - I will not even think of sin - I will think only of doing everything God's way!

I.E. - if you are addicted to adult movies or having sex with a million girls, deciding your sexuality is only for one girl is symbolically putting on the helmet of salvation. It might be hard at first, but if you consistently 'flex that muscle of faith' it will get stronger and stronger over time, and then it is easy to fight that compulsion.

Same with unforgiveness, same with alcoholism, same with drug addiction, and all of those things!

Edited January 31, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[MithLuin]

Oh, you can put on the breastplate more than symbolically! I recommend the Lorica...

[quote]Atomriug indiu
niurt tréun:
togairm Trindóit
faístin Oendatad,
i nDúlemon dáil.

Atomriug indiu
niurt gene Críst cona bathius,
niurt a chrochtho cona adnacul,
niurt a essérgi cona fhresgabáil,
niurt a thoíniudo fri brithemnas mbrátho.

Atomriug indiu
niurt gráid hiruphin,
i n-aurlataid aingel,
i frestul inna n-archaingel,
i freiscisin esséirgi
ar chiunn fochraicce,
i n-ernaigthib uasalathrach,
i tairchetlaib fáithe,
i preceptaib apstal,
i n-iresaib foísmedach,
i n-enccai noebingen,
i ngnímaib fer firén.

Atomriug indiu
niurt nime,
soilsi gréne,
étrochtai éscai,
áni thened,
déni lóchet,
luaithi gaíthe,
fudomnai mara,
tairismigi thalman,
cobsaidi ailech.

Atomriug indiu
niurt Dé dom luamairecht.
Cumachtae nDé dom chumgabáil,
ciall Dé dom inthús,
rose nDé dom remcisiu,
cluas Dé dom étsecht,
briathar Dé dom erlabrai,
lám Dé dom imdegail,
intech Dé dom remthechtas,
sciath Dé dom imdítin,
sochraite Dé dom anacul
ar intledaib demnae,
ar aslagib dualche,
ar forimthechtaib aicnid,
ar cech duine mídúthrastar dam,
i céin ocus i n-ocus,
i n'uathud ocus i sochaidi.

Tocuiriur etrum indiu inna uili nert-so
fri cech nert n-amnas n-étrocar frista-i dom churp ocus dom anmain,
fri tinchetla sa-ibfh-aithe,
fri dubrechtu gentliuchtae,
fri saíbrechtu heretecdae,
fri imchellacht n-ídlachtae,
fri brichtu ban ocus goban ocus druad,
fri cech fiss arachuille corp ocus anmain duini.

Crist dom imdegail indiu
ar neim, ar loscud, ar bádud, ar guin,
condom-thair ilar fochraicce.
Críst limm, Críst reum, Críst im degaid,
Críst indium, Críst ísum, Críst uasum,
Críst desum, Críst tuathum,
Críst i llius, Críst i sius, Críst i n-erus,
Críst i cridiu cech duini immumrorda,
Críst i ngin cech oín rodom-labrathar,
Críst i cech rusc nonom-dercathar,
Críst i cech cluais rodom-chloathar.

Atomriug indiu
niurt tréun:
togairm Trindóit,
cretim Treodatad,
faístin Oendatad,
i nDúlemon dáil.

Domini est salus,
Domini est salus,
Christi est salusñ
salus tua, Domine, sit semper nobiscum.[/quote]

Or, if you'd prefer an English translation....

[quote]I bind unto myself today
The strong Name of the Trinity,
By invocation of the same,
The Three in One and One in Three.

I bind this day to me for ever.
By power of faith, Christ's incarnation;
His baptism in the Jordan river;
His death on Cross for my salvation;
His bursting from the spicèd tomb;
His riding up the heavenly way;
His coming at the day of doom;
I bind unto myself today.

I bind unto myself the power
Of the great love of the cherubim;
The sweet 'well done' in judgment hour,
The service of the seraphim,
Confessors' faith, Apostles' word,
The Patriarchs' prayers, the Prophets' scrolls,
All good deeds done unto the Lord,
And purity of virgin souls.

I bind unto myself today
The virtues of the starlit heaven,
The glorious sun's life-giving ray,
The whiteness of the moon at even,
The flashing of the lightning free,
The whirling wind's tempestuous shocks,
The stable earth, the deep salt sea,
Around the old eternal rocks.

I bind unto myself today
The power of God to hold and lead,
His eye to watch, His might to stay,
His ear to hearken to my need.
The wisdom of my God to teach,
His hand to guide, His shield to ward,
The word of God to give me speech,
His heavenly host to be my guard.

Against the demon snares of sin,
The vice that gives temptation force,
The natural lusts that war within,
The hostile men that mar my course;
Or few or many, far or nigh,
In every place and in all hours,
Against their fierce hostility,
I bind to me these holy powers.

Against all Satan's spells and wiles,
Against false words of heresy,
Against the knowledge that defiles,
Against the heart's idolatry,
Against the wizard's evil craft,
Against the death wound and the burning,
The choking wave and the poisoned shaft,
Protect me, Christ, till Thy returning.

Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me,
Christ to comfort and restore me.
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.

I bind unto myself the Name,
The strong Name of the Trinity;
By invocation of the same.
The Three in One, and One in Three,
Of Whom all nature hath creation,
Eternal Father, Spirit, Word:
Praise to the Lord of my salvation,
Salvation is of Christ the Lord.[/quote]

There's other translations out there, of course; this is a very ancient prayer. It is called the Breastplate of St. Patrick, and was used by him in the spiritual warfare involved in converting pagan Ireland to Christianity. I'm partial to the version used by Fr. Hardon, SJ.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAYF0Qcs8Y[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f00VjTg3H8E&feature=related[/media]


To my knowledge, I've never dealt with someone who was actually possessed, and I'll let God sort out culpability at judgment. I would have to imagine there's at the very least reduced culpability in cases involving demonic possession, though it can't be that common. Judas had already made his choice to betray Jesus [i]prior[/i] to the devil entering into him, and was (presumably) no longer possessed when he tried to give back the money and repented. He still hanged himself, though. So, he would likely be pretty fully culpable for both the betrayal and the suicide, which explains the 'better if he'd never been born' comment.

Edited January 31, 2011 by MithLuin

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

True and true.

I think all the armour of God (I know we're not getting off topic) - is very useful against demonic possession.

We have the sandals of the preperation of the Gospel - i.e. - if you walking the walk there will be great joy in your life - something a demon will find it hard to get into your circle because spiritual weakness starts with being dissatisfied with your life.

Then there is the breast plate of righteousness - if your heart is in it through thick or thin, than demons can't really harm you either.

Then the shield of faith - if every discouraging word is defeated because of your faith, again - how do demons come in to influence you if you can't be discouraged from the faith.

Then the helmet of salvation - if your thoughts are constrained in Christ, doing things God's way - than how can they influence you.

And then the sword of the spirit - which is the word of truth - the Bible - if you know it, than the Devil has no power over you, because you have rights in God - and one of those rights is you have the power to tread upon all the power of the enemy - I don't know about you, but when i think about the word tread - I imagine crushing Satan under my foot!

[MithLuin]

Yay, Ephesians 6!

[quote]Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. [/quote]

It's no mistake that we must first gird our loins with the truth. Falsehood and heresy are deadly, as is sexual impurity.


I should have probably mentioned it earlier in this thread, but my great great uncle was an exorcist. He was a Redemptorist priest.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296441283' post='2206888']
Yay, Ephesians 6!



It's no mistake that we must first gird our loins with the truth. Falsehood and heresy are deadly, as is sexual impurity.


I should have probably mentioned it earlier in this thread, but my great great uncle was an exorcist. He was a Redemptorist priest.
[/quote]

I completely forgot that part - girding the loins in truth.

Your great, great uncle must have had a hard life in that role.

It's a little know fact about Luciferians that their baptism in the spirit is constituted by having new members have sex with a person in their cult called the harlot - i.e. the Harlot of Babylon - during their 'baptismal' ceremony. it is through the sexual act that the new members are possessed by demons.

Edited January 31, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Donna]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295755606' post='2203274']
Actually, this is an amesome reason why I will never belong to the Catholic faith. If someone said to me, Satan made my body pick up a knife and stab that person, I would only laugh, call them nuts, and walk away. Apparently, it is a good enough explanation for you.

Your entire theology is based upon one thing - fear - be afraid that God will take away any defense you have and a demon can then make you do things you wouldn't want to do. You have no defense, you have no recourse if a demon uses your body to accomplish evil in the world. Sorry, because this is based upon the emotion of fear, this teaching is null and void - because here is some good theology - God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind.

Your teachings that demons can force people's bodies to do things they wouldn't want to do neither empowers, loves, or sounds sane to me - no matter how much you try to say it is. The only way a demon can use another person's body is if the person allows them - period end of story. Personally, if a demon asked me if it can inhabit me (which usually happens in dreams of people who do get possessed) - I'd send it to hell in Jesus Name!
[/quote]

This person acts like a troll. The Faith has been spelled out for him more than sufficiently on Page 3 (and many places elsewhere on the Phorum).
His practices [i]as he himself has laid out in this thread[/i], are rash and irresponsible.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Donna

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Dominus Pax,
In my old NAB Bible it had a paragraph about possesion in the back, something to do with 2 kinds of possesion,can't remember the details,but if legion was 100,000 in the man in the tombs than theres heaps around, possibly we all have some amount of partial possesion some more. Plus anti psychotics and anti depressents and anti anxiety only help under 50 percent if in the throws of a serious possesion,the other 50 percent is cured by gods perscription for salvation,the sacrements,the word of god,and prayer,and even than one can remain partially possesed but the perscription when practised often allows us the ability to discern,examine,forgive,confess our sinfulness as well as faith and remain charitable among other virtues given to us in this war against the demons.
God is good
God Bless
JC "Seek and you will find"
Just thought maybe i am only talking about partial possesion,a real hell bound serious possesion most i assume requires an exorcism.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Donna' timestamp='1296546708' post='2207352']
This person acts like a troll. The Faith has been spelled out for him more than sufficiently on Page 3 (and many places elsewhere on the Phorum).
His practices [i]as he himself has laid out in this thread[/i], are rash and irresponsible.
[/quote]

I'm not a troll, I just vehemently disagree with the idea that a person can be 'truly out of control'. It's called a disagreement. Trolls do it for kicks, I'm taking my stand because I love God, and because you guys are wrong.

Edited February 2, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Donna]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1296621018' post='2207667']
I'm not a troll, I just vehemently disagree with the idea that a person can be 'truly out of control'. It's called a disagreement. Trolls do it for kicks, I'm taking my stand because I love God, and because you guys are wrong.
[/quote]
"Acts like a troll"

No matter how much you document, define terms and explain clearly, politely and repeatedly so that everyone with good will understands you in fact do not act like a troll...I will post that you do act like it -- because you do not understand troll related terms, and you do not know the troll scriptures, but I do, because you are wrong.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Donna