sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [u]Exorcist praises new movie 'The Rite' for showing power of faith[/u] Father Gary Thomas, whose real life experience as an exorcist-in-training is chronicled in the highly anticipated movie “The Rite,” praised the film for its positive portrayal of the Church and for its witness to the power of faith. The movie, starring Oscar winner Anthony Hopkins and newcomer Colin O’Donoghue, is loosely based on Fr. Thomas' experience traveling to Rome and studying under an Italian exorcist in 2005. Set to hit screens on Jan 28., “The Rite” follows skeptical seminary student Michael Kovak (O’Donoghue), who is sent to study exorcism at the Vatican in spite of his own doubts. Anthony Hopkins plays a character by the name of Fr. Lucas – an Italian priest and veteran exorcist – who befriends Michael and helps open his eyes to reality of demon possession and the need for rite in the modern world. The movie is based off of journalist Matt Baglio's 2009 book, “The Rite: The making of a modern exorcist.” Baglio befriended Fr. Gary Thomas while in Rome and chronicled the priest's studies at the Pontifical North American College and his eventual apprenticeship with a local exorcist. In an interview with CNA on Jan. 19, Fr. Thomas – who currently serves as pastor of Sacred Heart Parish in Saratoga, California – explained that he served as a consultant for the film, particularly the scenes featuring exorcisms. For a week in June last year, he said he was on the movie set working with cast members and producers. The priest added that “to their credit,” the directors and producers wanted the exorcism scenes to be as accurate at possible. “The environment of that movie set was very reverential towards the Church,” Fr. Thomas said. “The producer and the director and the cast whom I worked with at the time were very open.” Fr. Thomas said he recently saw a screening of the film alongside Anthony Hopkins at a New Line Cinema studio in Los Angeles. In his words, the movie has a “loose” basis in Baglio's book. One discrepancy Fr. Thomas pointed out was that he went to Rome as a 50-year-old seasoned priest with a desire to learn more about the rite of exorcism – hardly a cynical seminarian in the midst of a faith crisis. Despite the differences, however, he called the film “very good.” “The human side of the priesthood is very well developed,” he said, adding that the portrayal of “the institutional Church comes out very positively.” Fr. Thomas said that given the reality of the subject matter, the experience was very powerful and even frightening for many involved in the movie. He said that Hopkins, a professed Christian, and O'Donoghue – a practicing Catholic who serves as a lector at his parish in Dublin – “very much” believe in the existence of evil and feared possible demonic attacks as a result of working on the film. “The producer and the two key actors all asked me privately if they could be attacked by doing this movie,” he said. “I said, I can't absolutely say yes or no – which lead me to say 'possibly.'” “I do think that a person can get attacked, and I don't know if they did but they were afraid,” he said. “I just tried to reassure them.” Fr. Thomas also said that the intensely eery trailers for the film are “deceptive” in the sense that they make it look like a “horror movie,” which he says is inaccurate. “There's some very riveting scenes – I wouldn't say they're scary, but they're a little startling.” Ultimately, however, “this is a movie about faith,” said Fr. Thomas. “People are going to be very surprised.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 interview w ith a parish priest exorcist who is certifei by the vatican http://www.bustedhalo.com/videoandaudio/interview-father-gary-thomas-vatican-certified-exorcist has some interesting stuff. also has a point about the obsession oppression thing, as if interchangeable... "In a rare full possession, yes, but not every situation a full possession. In fact full possessions are very, very rare. However, less than full possessions are not quite as rare although they are not normative — what we would call an oppression or an obsession that sometimes does exist with people where they’re able on the one level to function but on another level they have opened a door or someone else has opened a door for them where a demon does have some serious influence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I read the book 'The Rite: Making of a Modern Day Exorcist'. I highly reccomend this book. Its very informative and does not cross the line. GREAT Book! GREAT Book! I cant wait to see the movie, especially after the Priest the movie is about has spoken so positively about it. Also the skeptikal lukewarm journalist who followed the Priest around converted to being a practicing Catholic and beleiver in Christ in the Eucharist, he also has said the movie sticks to the message of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. [/quote] Here's the thing, and you might think this is splitting hairs, but that woman who was possessed as a child could have repented of being that angry, and gave it to God - she could still do that - than the possession would end. IMHO I wouldn't accept someone say I got so angry because I was possessed. I do not agree that she wasn't able to decide to forgive whatever transgression that happened, which would close the door to the demon that was possessing her. If she continued because of the anger the demon imbued her with, than it was because she was continuing to live in the sin of unforgiveness - because God will not forgive your sins if you don't forgive others. Possession can only happen if you are open to sin - be it you don't want to forgive someone, or you watch too many adult movies or the ultimate goal for a guy is to have sex with a million girls, or you go boozing out every weekend, ect, ect, ect - it always starts with something you decide to do or not do! Edited January 24, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1295834566' post='2203632'] why don't exorcists record on video when things like 'the exorcist...' occur? or things that are obviously supernatural, like a couch that starts pulsing or soemthing. they record voices as far as i know, but that leads to incredulity as to the authenticity... just give people more proof, to show it's not psychological or some such. is that too much to ask? [/quote] Exorcists are spiritual physicians. They are not allowed to reveal whom they have exorcised without the permission of the exorcised himself. I am sure video recordings have been made for use in training, approved for use as such by the exorcised. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295840325' post='2203669'] Here's the thing, and you might think this is splitting hairs, but that woman who was possessed as a child could have repented of being that angry, and gave it to God - she could still do that, IMHO - I wouldn't accept someone say - I got so angry because I was possessed - I would say, why didn't you repent of the anger you felt which allowed the demon in the first place , once you repent of being that angry over whatever she was angry at - than she wouldn't be open, so I would say, no her free will was not compromised, she just wanted to feel angry, and used a demon to give her anger more power - and that is shameful! Same thing with the drunk, he could repent of drinking all those beers, and decide - if I do drink, I will only drink this many, and go on from there - so he will never loose his ability to decide. But even then, I've never been so drunk that I wasn't in control, and considering the first time I was drunk I had 10 ounces of whisky, that is saying a lot. [/quote] As I told Nihil Obstat, I don't know much about exorcisms or posession, so I am going on merely hypothetically here, and arguing a moot point.... but... When you are drunk, you cannot say, "I do not want to be drunk anymore, Self. Let me just not be drunk." It doesn't work that way. Why would it when one is possessed? And even if the child did repent, that doesn't mean "Poof!" all of a sudden the demon would be gone. I for one, believe in the necessity of Confession, and I think you would agree with me, at any rate, that even if we are sorry God never just lifts the consequences of our actions from us. It's not like we say, "I'm sorry, God, I was driving drunk and got in an accident and killed my wife!" and God replies, "Okay; here's your wife back." And [i]furthermore[/i]... people do things they do not want to do all the time. They cannot control their actions and, to all appearances, their free will has been "taken" from them. People with tourette's, or dementia, or huntingtons, for example. These people have little or no control over what they do or say. Does this mean their will has been taken from them? Does it mean they cannot will an action different than that which they did? Not at all. The disease can make them say one thing even though they mean another, quite literally. The disease can make them do one thing, when they want to do another. Literally. Now, if a disease can do this, why can't a demon? Edited January 24, 2011 by Tally Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295841626' post='2203682'] As I told Nihil Obstat, I don't know much about exorcisms or posession, so I am going on merely hypothetically here, and arguing a moot point.... but... When you are drunk, you cannot say, "I do not want to be drunk anymore, Self. Let me just not be drunk." It doesn't work that way. Why would it when one is possessed? And even if the child did repent, that doesn't mean "Poof!" all of a sudden the demon would be gone. I for one, believe in the necessity of Confession, and I think you would agree with me, at any rate, that even if we are sorry God never just lifts the consequences of our actions from us. It's not like we say, "I'm sorry, God, I was driving drunk and got in an accident and kileld my wife!" and God replies, "Okay; here's your wife back." And [i]furthermore[/i]... people do things they do not want to do all the time. They cannot control their actions and, to all appearances, their free will has been "taken" from them. People with tourette's, or dementia, or huntingtons, for example. These people have little or no control over what they do or say. Does this mean their will has been taken from them? Does it mean they cannot will an action different than that which they did? Not at all. The disease can make them say one thing even though they mean another, quite literally. The disease can make them do one thing, when they want to do another. Literally. Now, if a disease can do this, why can't a demon? [/quote] Repentance isn't just asking God for forgiveness, [b]the definition of repentance is to forsake what you are doing wrong and do things God's way. [/b] Yes, there are consequences to their actions, I'm not arguing that, but a person can stop being involved in the sin they were involved in that allowed the demon in at any time. And because of what the definition of repentance is - yes - the demon will have the door closed on them - because if you forgive the person who hurt you every single time you start to get angry at them, soon the demon will just leave you alone because it can't get a foothold in your mind anymore. That's the funny thing about practicing your faith - instead of intellectually thinking about it - if you continue to forgive everybody who hurts you all the time, after a while, you never get angry at them anymore. . . And bringing up people who live with difficulties such as the one's you just brought up - well, I have no respect for you for doing that. Most of the people you described above are heroes. and should be recognized as such, to live with such difficulties. But equating demonic possession to what they have to live with is way out of bounds. Edited January 24, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295842246' post='2203687'] Repentance isn't just asking God for forgiveness, [b]the definition of repentance is to forsake what you are doing wrong and do things God's way. [/b] Yes, there are consequences to their actions, I'm not arguing that, but a person can stop being involved in the sin they were involved in that allowed the demon in at any time. And because of what the definition of repentance is - yes - the demon will have the door closed on them - because if you forgive the person who hurt you every single time you start to get angry at them, soon the demon will just leave you alone because it can't get a foothold in your mind anymore. That's the funny thing about practicing your faith - instead of intellectually thinking about it - if you continue to forgive everybody who hurts you all the time, after a while, you never get angry at them anymore. . . And bringing up people who live with difficulties such as the one's you just brought up - well, I have no respect for you for doing that. Most of the people you described above are heroes. and should be recognized as such, to live with such difficulties. But equating demonic possession to what they have to live with is way out of bounds. [/quote] 1) She couldn't forsake her [i]actions[/i], anymore than one can just stop being drunk. She maybe doesn't want to be possessed anymore, and is very sorry, but she already is possessed. Remember: the demon has a will, too, and he won't want to just leave. And he doesn't have to, because one way God teaches us is giving us exactly what we deserve, letting us face the consequences of our actions. 2) You speak of people with those diseases as unnameable "heros". I speak of them as friends. I have known them, loved them, watched them struggle, and watched them die. Don't you dare try to make me look insensitive. I have the utmost respect for them, and my post shows that. I didn't demean them. If anything, I pointed out their strength. Every day, they are forced to do things they do not want to do, and yet they [i]still do not will[/i] that which they do. And my point, whether you like my analogy or not, is still valid. If a disease, wanted or not, can force someone to do something agaisnt their will, then so can a demon, wanted or not, make someone do something against their will. Doing something, and willing it, can be two separate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295843143' post='2203691'] 1) She couldn't forsake her [i]actions[/i], anymore than one can just stop being drunk. She maybe doesn't want to be possessed anymore, and is very sorry, but she already is possessed. Remember: the demon has a will, too, and he won't want to just leave. And he doesn't have to, because one way God teaches us is giving us exactly what we deserve, letting us face the consequences of our actions. [/quote] Let me point out the logical inconsistencies of what you are saying, god lets us face the consequences of our actions, but she can't do anything to forsake her actions - isn't your god then a hypocrite, because he is judging her for something she has no control over. My theology says - she can forsake her actions, so God will allow her to face the consequences of her actions - and if she faces them, repents and turns to God for victory over that demon and stands in victory by continuing to practice forgiveness of the people that hurt her - than she will be freed from the demon forever because she can close her mind from its influence. You take away her power with your theology, and I give her power by saying, you can overcome this demon by practicing the faith God has given us! [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295843143' post='2203691'] 2) You speak of people with those diseases as unnameable "heros". I speak of them as friends. I have known them, loved them, watched them struggle, and watched them die. Don't you dare try to make me look insensitive. I have the utmost respect for them, and my post shows that. I didn't demean them. If anything, I pointed out their strength. Every day, they are forced to do things they do not want to do, and yet they [i]still do not will[/i] that which they do. And my point, whether you like my analogy or not, is still valid. If a disease, wanted or not, can force someone to do something agaisnt their will, then so can a demon, wanted or not, make someone do something against their will. Doing something, and willing it, can be two separate things. [/quote] I am one of those heroes, I have a learning disability - and I know many people who are equally 'disabled' who are heroes in my books, overcoming weaknesses that many other people don't have to deal with! Edit - I changed his god to lower case, because his god isn't God! Edited January 24, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295843920' post='2203693'] Let me point out the logical inconsistencies of what you are saying, God lets us face the consequences of our actions, but she can't do anything to forsake her actions - isn't your God then a hypocrite, because he is judging her for something she has no control over. My theology says - she can forsake her actions, so God will allow her to face the consequences of her actions - and if she faces them, repents and turns to God for victory over that demon and stands in victory by continuing to practice forgiveness of the people that hurt her - than she will be freed from the demon forever because she can close her mind from its influence. You take away her power with your theology, and I give her power by saying, you can overcome this demon by practicing the faith God has given us! [/quote] 1) No. That is what you are saying. [i]You[/i] were arguing that they be held responsible for their actions when they are possessed. I never said that they would be held accountable for their actions if they were possessed. In fact, my entire argument implicitly implies that they [i]are not [/i]held accountable for their actions while they are possessed. Though, naturally, they could be held accountable for whatever action that opened them up to possession (assuming that they [i]did[/i] something to "open themselves up" which, according to others here wiser than I, isn't a necessity). 2) The girl was facing the consequence of her anger. I did not say she was facing the consequences of later outbursts, merely that first one that got her into the mess. It was you who said she'd have to forsake even the later outbursts to be forgiven of her first bout of anger. You are adding to my argument and then telling me that your additions make the argument silly. So, my argument in a nutshell: She can remain possessed, because that is the consequence of her anger and she must face the consequence. And, she cannot be held accountable for actions which happened during the possession because she did not will them (like someone with tourette's does not will their actions). You said demons cannot control people because God would never "take away their will". I proved (via dementia) that actions can be separate from the will. The will is not taken over, merely bodily function. What are we arguing about, now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295843920' post='2203693'] I am one of those heroes, I have a learning disability - and I know many people who are equally 'disabled' who are heroes in my books, overcoming weaknesses that many other people don't have to deal with! Edit - I changed his god to lower case, because his god isn't God! [/quote] Mark, meaning no offense, but perhaps you need to struggle a bit more. You completely misunderstood my words (un-capitializing God was completely unnecessary) and have tried to make them mean the exact opposite of what they mean. You have accused me of saying and believing that which I did not say and do not believe. Please, review my posts and my argument before we continue the conversation. You have misunderstood me. Edited January 24, 2011 by Tally Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-8DQgzUPc[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I also will not continue this discussion until Mark practices some intellectual honesty and general use of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' timestamp='1295845920' post='2203702'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-8DQgzUPc[/media] [/quote] I'm fairly certain I saw him at Ignite Your Torch 2010..... He's really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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