Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Stern has responded with airtight arguments. I have nothing left to say to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295816604' post='2203532'] Stern has responded with airtight arguments. I have nothing left to say to you. [/quote] Sorry, his arguments have so many holes it is unbelievable. The person who was possessed by legion could still run to Jesus - therefore they were never in complete control of him, while Judas who Satan entered into him continued down that path and betrayed Jesus, and Jesus said it would have been better if he were never born - so obviously, Judas had a choice in the matter, and choose the wrong thing. If you want to believe that a demon can take control of another person's body and make that body do things against the will of the person - than you are entitled too. As for me - If I started to believe that, I would personally put myself into observation because that's crazy. I believe it is a fairy tale. It would make an interesting story plot, but it isn't reality. Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295817044' post='2203544'] [/quote] That's what happens when you try to move the unmovable object - you just tire yourself out by doing this - ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295814542' post='2203502'] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases! [/quote] Relax pimpin. You don't want to go there. Ease up or get pieced up. Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295816474' post='2203529'] That's the whole crux of my beef with Stern, because to think a person's free will can be taken away from them while a demon possesses their body and goes on a killing rampage is not reality. [/quote] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. [/quote] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. [/quote] Fr. Gabriele Amorth, Rome's chief exorcist, explicitly says in his book that while rare, people can become possessed through absolutely no fault of their own. That it is not always necessary for the individual to "open any door" or allow the demon in. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295830501' post='2203613'] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined. [/quote] Exactly. Just as the line between "hilarity" and "drunkenness" is not well defined. (At least not to human comprehension.) ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295830501' post='2203613'] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined. [/quote] Alright. I had always heard the word "obsession" in place of "oppression". To me, they are the same thing. ...I must admit I am not knowledgeable when it comes to possession, obsession, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295832624' post='2203621'] Alright. I had always heard the word "obsession" in place of "oppression". To me, they are the same thing. ...I must admit I am not knowledgeable when it comes to possession, obsession, etc. [/quote] I think that's a distinction that Fr. Amorth makes based on experience. I can go back and read the relevant passages if you like, but it's not all that material to the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. [/quote] Just sayin' but that sounds good! Will Jesus let satan take over where he been made welcome and satan is not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 why don't exorcists record on video when things like 'the exorcist...' occur? or things that are obviously supernatural, like a couch that starts pulsing or soemthing. they record voices as far as i know, but that leads to incredulity as to the authenticity... just give people more proof, to show it's not psychological or some such. is that too much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jegudiel Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Why? I think these days, people expect too much for the events to be like a movie or YouTube video. An oppressive spiritual force doesn't respond to embarrassment. It does, however, respond to the prayers of God. The key need is for the priest to be able to help the sufferer. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1295834566' post='2203632'] why don't exorcists record on video when things like 'the exorcist...' occur? or things that are obviously supernatural, like a couch that starts pulsing or soemthing. they record voices as far as i know, but that leads to incredulity as to the authenticity... just give people more proof, to show it's not psychological or some such. is that too much to ask? [/quote] I'm pretty sure if evidence could be gathered and demonstrated it would be. Do you think satan will allow itself to be exposed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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