Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295757949' post='2203277'] I'm sorry DS, but to accept a theology that says that at any moment a demon can force a person to do something that is against their will is Bat croutons Crazy theology that I would tell the people telling me that they should go back on the meds. Fortunately, I don't belong to your faith and I reject that theology outright. It's Bat croutons Crazy stuff.[/quote] Mark, again, Catholic theology doesn't say "at any moment" a demon can force someone to do something. You're ignoring what we've been telling you about Catholic teaching. No demon can force any human to do anything against his will. However, a possessed person, (and possession is rare) can have his body used against his will, in the same way that a person can have his or her body used by a rapist against his will, or in the same way someone can physically overpower you and use your arm to do something. Stop ignoring that issue and clinging to your straw-man argument about what you say we believe. [quote]I can accept that theology of demonic possession because it is accurate and true - but the other one - where someone can be taken over by a demon and their bodies do something against their will is not in the Bible![/quote] I just gave you three New Testament examples that contradict that statement. [quote]In other words, there is nothing that can override us if we don't first allow it - because my spirit is my spirit, and if I don't want to do something that a demon wants, then it can force me to do that! [/quote] Again, the free will is inviolable. Nobody contests that. But the body is not the will. A demon can control a body to a lesser or greater extent at times, as proven by those scriptural references. It said THE demon did those things [i]to [/i]the possessed person. It does [i]not[/i] say that the possessed person did them. Do you think the demon didn't use the vocal chords of the possessed person? Again, I ask, how many possessed people have you seen? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295755606' post='2203274'] Actually, this is an awesome reason why I will never belong to the Catholic faith. If someone said to me, Satan made my body pick up a knife and stab that person, I would only laugh, call them nuts, and walk away. Apparently, it is a good enough explanation for you. [b]Your entire theology is based upon one thing - fear[/b] - be afraid that God will take away any defense you have and a demon can then make you do things you wouldn't want to do. You have no defense, you have no recourse if a demon uses your body to accomplish evil in the world. Sorry, because this is based upon the emotion of fear, this teaching is null and void - because here is some good theology - God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Your teachings that demons can force people's bodies to do things they wouldn't want to do neither empowers, loves, or sounds sane to me - no matter how much you try to say it is. The only way a demon can use another person's body is if the person allows them - period end of story. Personally,[b] if a demon asked me if it can inhabit me (which usually happens in dreams of people who do get possessed) - I'd send it to hell in Jesus Name![/b] [/quote] That is a ridiculous statement. If it were truly based on fear, we would never be happy in worship. It is true that God gives the spirit of love and a sound mind, but he also gave us free will. Satan DOES ask us "can I possess you?" in everyday life- through abortion, through sin, through abuse, through lust, through certain tv shows, through music, etc. When we choose give into these things, we say "yes" to Satan and "No" to God. When we say "No" to God, we are asking Him to take away our defenses and allowing Satan to work in our lives. When we say "demons can force people's bodies to do things", we mean that after we've said "go right ahead!" through our sinning, that he has the power (which we gave him) to do with us as he likes. If everyone was asked straight out like that before they were possessed, I'm pretty sure they'd say the same thing- granted they had some type of basic theological knowledge. Demons don't possess us randomly, and God doesn't tell them too either. If you think that is the Church's stance on the issue of being possessed, they you're mistaken. =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295758765' post='2203281'] Go back on your meds. Demons can not take over the free will of a human being unless the human being releases it to a demon. [/quote] Has anyone here denied that? No. But you equate involuntary physical activity, such as having one's arm flailed about by a stronger person, as a "freely willed activity." That, sir, is insane. What is more insane is that you continually cling to the idea that we are saying "demons can control human free will," when absolutely no one here has espoused that view. Scripture does not agree with [i]your [/i]doctrine. ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295758844' post='2203282'] Mark, again, Catholic theology doesn't say "at any moment" a demon can force someone to do something. You're ignoring what we've been telling you about Catholic teaching. No demon can force any human to do anything against his will. However, a possessed person, (and possession is rare) can have his body used against his will, in the same way that a person can have his or her body used by a rapist against his will, or in the same way someone can physically overpower you and use your arm to do something. Stop ignoring that issue and clinging to your straw-man argument about what you say we believe. I just gave you three New Testament examples that contradict that statement. Again, the free will is inviolable. Nobody contests that. But the body is not the will. A demon can control a body to a lesser or greater extent at times, as proven by those scriptural references. It said THE demon did those things [i]to [/i]the possessed person. It does [i]not[/i] say that the possessed person did them. Do you think the demon didn't use the vocal chords of the possessed person? Again, I ask, how many possessed people have you seen? ~Sternhauser [/quote] I don't usually say this, but I would rather be an atheist than belong to a religion that twists scripture to the point of saying, even if it is rare, a demon can take over anybody's body at anytime, just like in Supernatural or the Exorcist, and the person is then powerless to do anything as their body goes against their will. You guys are bat croutons crazy for this theology! God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Again, this theology doesn't empower me any, doesn't sound loving, and sounds pretty bat croutons crazy - and it smells like fear to the nth degree. So, if it doesn't sound like the spirit of God would give any such theology, I can only conclude it is not of God! Your religion has twisted scripture to suit a theology of fear, and as a result, I reject your twisted theology! [sup][/sup] [quote]1 Corinthians 14:31-33 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. [b]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [/b] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [/quote] I think the theology that my body can never be used by a demon to do anything I wouldn't want is actually a very empowering theology, a very loving theology, and one that wouldn't sound crazy to anybody actually - because I am saying, I am always accountable for my actions - which is what every sane person on this planet understands - to say you are not accountable for your actions sometimes because a demon took over your body is bat croutons crazy! Of course, I do believe a person can give up their free will to say what a demon wants to say, but the demon can only do what the person will allow them to do! Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295759163' post='2203285'] I don't usually say this, but I would rather be an atheist than belong to a religion that twists scripture to the point of saying, even if it is rare, a demon can take over anybody's body at anytime, just like in Supernatural or the Exorcist, and the person is then powerless to do anything as their body goes against their will. You guys are bat croutons crazy for this theology! God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Again, this theology doesn't empower me any, doesn't sound loving, and sounds pretty bat croutons crazy - and it smells like fear to the nth degree. So, if it doesn't sound like the spirit of God would give any such theology, I can only conclude it is not of God! Your religion has twisted scripture to suit a theology of fear, and as a result, I reject your twisted theology! [/quote] Scripture isn't being twisted. You, however, are continually torturing logic in a hopeless attempt make reality fit into your perception of reality. And you offer no basis for your belief. No reason. You simply keep repeating, "You guys are afraid! Fearful," contrary to our assurances and proofs to the contrary. And you keep saying, "That's crazy! That's crazy! You guys are crazy!" while offering no logical reason why Satan wouldn't be allowed to rarely possess a few individuals, particularly those who dabble in the occult. I might as well call you "crazy" for believing that a loving God could allow [i]anyone[/i] to be possessed. Why couldn't I? Theology doesn't exist to "empower" [i]you[/i], it is a study of God for the purpose of giving glory to [i]Him[/i]. I don't care if it "sounds" loving or not. The fact that God's will is loving, even when he allows evil to happen, is not dependent on [i]you[/i] or [i]your[/i] feelings. It's about [i]Him. [/i]And it doesn't matter if it "smells" or "sounds" like anything to you, because[i] you[/i] are not the final arbiter of reality. [i]God[/i] is. And [i]He[/i] established one Church, founded on the Rock of Peter, to whom he gave the keys of heaven, to bind on heaven [i]and [/i]earth, to give sound doctrine to the world. To [i]feed His lambs. [/i] Jesus wanted us to believe the same thing, and prayed that we be one, not that every individual go off and believe and do whatever he "feels," "smells," "hears" or wants. He wanted us to have the Truth. ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295759500' post='2203286'] Scripture isn't being twisted. You, however, are continually torturing logic in a hopeless attempt make reality fit into your perception of reality. And you offer no basis for your belief. No reason. You simply keep repeating, "You guys are afraid! Fearful," contrary to our assurances and proofs to the contrary. And you keep saying, "That's crazy! That's crazy! You guys are crazy!" while offering no logical reason why Satan wouldn't be allowed to rarely possess a few individuals, particularly those who dabble in the occult. I might as well call you "crazy" for believing that a loving God could allow [i]anyone[/i] to be possessed. Why couldn't I? ~Sternhauser [/quote] Sorry, the devil forced my fingers to type all of that. I apologize! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295759844' post='2203289'] Sorry, the devil forced my fingers to type all of that. I apologize! [/quote] You turn to insults against the person. I use logic against the arguments. Why should I believe your judgments on theology, when you cannot even remain civil? Where is your credibility? ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1295758917' post='2203283'] That is a ridiculous statement. If it were truly based on fear, we would never be happy in worship. It is true that God gives the spirit of love and a sound mind, but he also gave us free will. Satan DOES ask us "can I possess you?" in everyday life- through abortion, through sin, through abuse, through lust, through certain tv shows, through music, etc. When we choose give into these things, we say "yes" to Satan and "No" to God. When we say "No" to God, we are asking Him to take away our defenses and allowing Satan to work in our lives. When we say "demons can force people's bodies to do things", we mean that after we've said "go right ahead!" through our sinning, that he has the power (which we gave him) to do with us as he likes. If everyone was asked straight out like that before they were possessed, I'm pretty sure they'd say the same thing- granted they had some type of basic theological knowledge. Demons don't possess us randomly, and God doesn't tell them too either. If you think that is the Church's stance on the issue of being possessed, they you're mistaken. =/ [/quote] Actually, this actually sums what what I think of demonic possession anyway. I think Stern here, and Nihil - who say demons can take over people's body and force them to do things is pretty crazy stuff - I will never accept that theology ever (hence you can read my sarcastic remark to both of them at my response to Stern's comments). We can give away our free will and use it to do Satan's work, but Satan can never use our bodies to do it by forcing himself on us. There has to be either a conscious (which happens with many spiritual Luciferians), or unconscious by some people deciding to do things the wrong way - but to think one day Satan will ever take over our body because God gives him the right to take over your body against your will - that never happens. It is a good story for a hollywood movie or a TV show, but it doesn't happen in life. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295760210' post='2203292'] You turn to insults against the person. I use logic against the arguments. Why would I believe your judgments on theology, when you cannot even remain civil? ~Sternhauser [/quote] I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore. Go back on your meds. Better yet, go to the mental hospital in your town, ask for an evaluation - tell the attending psychiatrist that you believe that a demon can forcefully take over anybody's body and make them do evil things like stab people, and that person is innocent of any wrong doing - and see what they think of that. Honestly, I am the only one thinking logically and sane in this debate. I am always accountable for my actions, period, end of story, and so is everybody else. If you don't believe everybody is totally accountable for every action because a demon forced their bodies to do something - than you are insane, and you need to be in a mental hospital! Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295760257' post='2203293'] Actually, this actually sums what what I think of demonic possession anyway. I think Stern here, and Nihil - who say demons can take over people's body and force them to do things is pretty crazy stuff - I will never accept that theology ever (hence you can read my sarcastic remark to both of them at my response to Stern's comments).[/quote] Though we have repeatedly said that the body is not the will, contrary to your constant repetition and misrepresentation of our arguments. Do you subscribe to the ancient heresy of dualism? Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][b]"[/b][/b][b][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/b] Luke 8:29 "Many times[b] it had seized him,[/b] [what does this mean?] and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains [really? he broke his chains with his own power? Something he would never have been able to do if he were not possesed?] and [b]had been driven by the demon[/b] into solitary places." Mark 9:20 "So they brought him. When[b] the spirit[/b] saw Jesus,[b] it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion[/b]." [quote]If you don't believe everybody is totally accountable for every action because a demon forced their bodies to do something [/quote] Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][b]"[/b][/b][b][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/b] Luke 8:29 "Many times[b] it had seized him,[/b] and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and [b]had been driven by the demon[/b] into solitary places." Mark 9:20 "So they brought him. When[b] the spirit[/b] saw Jesus,[b] it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion.[/b]" [Is scripture lying, here? How did the demon get muscle control over the boy? According to the doctrine of Mark Scheunemannism, this is impossible! Crazy!] Mark, how many people have you exorcised, again? You didn't seem to answer that question the last two times I asked. Maybe the mental heath professionals would like to hear about how [i]you[/i] fought off "maybe hundreds" of demons attacking at once. Not saying defense from such an attack would be impossible, with Jesus's help. Just that it's highly improbable that you were attacked. They'd probably agree. But what does that prove? Most mental health professionals would say you were insane for believing in the very possibility of possession, wouldn't you agree? ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295760902' post='2203299'] Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][b]"[/b][/b][b][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/b] Luke 8:29 "Many times[b] it had seized him,[/b] and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and [b]had been driven by the demon[/b] into solitary places." Mark 9:20 "So they brought him. When[b] the spirit[/b] saw Jesus,[b] it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion.[/b] He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth." Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][b]"[/b][/b][b][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/b] Luke 8:29 "Many times[b] it had seized him,[/b] and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and [b]had been driven by the demon[/b] into solitary places." Mark 9:20 "So they brought him. When[b] the spirit[/b] saw Jesus,[b] it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion.[/b] He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth." Crazy. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Yes Crazy - you have shown that demons can bring harm to people, but you haven't show me that they can make my body stab someone. In fact the man you are using ran to Jesus, if the demons were in total control of his body - he wouldn't have run to Jesus. And yes, demons can give incredible power to someone - but that power is in total control of the person who the demon inhabits - and the person must allow the demon into him. They are still 100 per cent accountable for all actions caused while they were demonically possessed - because they can still decide how far they will take that power. When I exorcised a demonic spirit that held me for several years, I almost completely stopped eating for 7 weeks, and it was one humongous ordeal, because it was doing everything to stop me from sending it to hell - but I still had the power to send it to hell in Jesus name, and I still had my own faculties, and I could still decide on things - it didn't control my body. It confused my mind, but it never controlled my body. This theology is entirely insane! Nobody, except for a believer of this theology, will ever accept that a person is not accountable for every action just because 'The devil forced their body to do something'. Anybody who says that in a court of law, if they killed someone, will be put into a hospital for the criminally insane for a very long time. Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295761611' post='2203302'] Yes Crazy - you have shown that demons can bring harm to people, but you haven't show me that they can make my body stab someone. In fact the man you are using ran to Jesus, if the demons were in total control of his body - he wouldn't have run to Jesus.[/quote] Correct. There are two kinds of possession. Imperfect possession, and perfect possession. In perfect possession, the person has given over his will completely. In imperfect possession (these cases) the individual has not. There are varying states during a simple possession, where the person is aware of what is happening, and states in which the person's body has been taken over, while the person's will is intact. [quote]And yes, demons can give incredible power to someone - but that power is in total control of the person who the demon inhabits - and the person must allow the demon into him. They are still 100 per cent accountable for all actions caused while they were demonically possessed - because they can still decide how far they will take that power.[/quote] From whence do you derive your knowledge of this subject, and your authority to say this? [quote]When I exorcised a demonic spirit that held me for several years, I almost completely stopped eating for 7 weeks, and it was one humongous ordeal, because it was doing everything to stop me from sending it to hell - but I still had the power to send it to hell in Jesus name, and I still had my own faculties, and I could still decide on things - it didn't control my body. It confused my mind, but it never controlled my body.[/quote] If it was a possession, it was a simple possession, not a perfect possession. Why do you think you were possessed? What were the symptoms? [quote]This theology is entirely insane! Nobody, except for a believer of this theology, will ever accept that a person is not accountable for every action just because 'The devil forced their body to do something'. Anybody who says that in a court of law, if they killed someone, will be put into a hospital for the criminally insane for a very long time.[/quote] Many possessed people do end up in mental institutions and prisons. How is it that the person was not accountable for his action when, as it said, the [i]demon[/i] sent him into convulsions, but [i]would[/i] be accountable if the demon had harmed someone? If the demon can make his body (not his will, mind you) do something like go into convulsions, why can't it use the muscles in other ways? ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 If it makes you happy that you believe that some people can have their body totally taken over by a demon, than that should be enough for you. I shall live in the world of reality where every person is accountable for every action they do - where the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295763757' post='2203313'] If it makes you happy that you believe that some people can have their body totally taken over by a demon, than that should be enough for you. I shall live in the world of reality where every person is accountable for every action they do - where the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. [/quote] In your world, you would be morally (and not only physically) accountable for dreams about fornication, or when you punch your wife in your sleep. That's a strange world, Mark. And by your logic, you'd be morally and physically accountable for your actions if someone injected you with a high dose of methamphetamines, too. But in reality, punching someone in your sleep and having dreams are not human acts with moral quality. They happen without any input from the will of the individual. And that is what happens when the demon is in the act of using one's body. Former victims of possession reported that their lives were like a living nightmare, in the truest sense of the words. They meant that the events they remembered had a dreamlike, surreal, nightmarish quality about them. The beautiful singing of birds was distorted to sound like dark croaking of crows. Mark, please answer the questions I asked you. ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293430283' post='2194599'] Can a Catholic be possessed, especially after we've been baptized, confirm, and generally participate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] Yes, especially if a priest attempts an exorcism without the permission of his bishop. [quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293430283' post='2194599'] Also, will you be seeing this movie? [/quote] Wow... definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1295732375' post='2203132'] I think part of the problem is that any movie about an exorcism is going to be compared to [i]The Exorcist[/i]...and the people making it know that. So, there's that self-conscious vibe that goes into making one. One can hope that it wouldn't be terrible, but...we'll see. I'm not generally a fan of horror flicks. Being Catholic (baptized, confirmed, etc) does not make one immune from demonic influence. A full-blown possession would be...unusual...to say the least, but there were saints who suffered from it (unless I am completely mistaken). [/quote] I do not recall hearing of any saints who were possessed, but I know many were tortured by demons. Padre Pio was said to have been physically beat by demons jealous of his devotion to his faith and trying to shake it. I think an actual possession would occur when one submitted to the influence and allowed the demon to enter his body to replace the grace within, this could either be done willingly like for some perceived gain or a loss of strenght of will to deny its power over you. St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil, May God rebuke him we humbly pray. And do thou O Prince of the Heavenly Host by the power of God, cast into hell satan and all evil spirits who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen ed Edited January 23, 2011 by Ed Normile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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