Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295745496' post='2203229'] That can't happen. It makes great Hollywood movies, but it isn't based on reality one bit.[/quote] Do you have any documentation to back up your claim? First hand experience? Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][size="2"][b]"[/b][/size][/b][b][size="2"][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/size][/b] Luke 8:29 "Many times[b] it had seized him,[/b] and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and [b]had been driven by the demon[/b] into solitary places." Mark 9:20 "So they brought him. When[b] the spirit[/b] saw Jesus,[b] it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion.[/b] He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth." [quote]And no, I don't know about Fr. Amorth or Ft. Martin, but I do know about Jesus Christ![/quote] Then respect their experience. They were priests of God and exorcists. Amorth still is. Between the two of them, they've probably exorcised thousands of possession victims. Have you exorcised anyone? ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 "[1] Therefore, seeing we have this ministration, according as we have obtained mercy, we faint not; [2] But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the word of God; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God. [3] And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus." Guess who the "god of this world" is. St. Paul said it, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295745635' post='2203231'] Do you have any documentation to back up your claim? First hand experience? Luke 9:42: "As the boy came forward,[b] the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion[/b]. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father." Luke 4:35 [b][size="2"][b]"[/b][/size][/b][b][size="2"][b]And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And [i]when the devil had thrown him in the midst,[/i] he came out of him, and hurt him not."[/b][/size][/b][/quote] Demons can attack, and I've almost suffered through two minor strokes because of spiritual attacks from dozens, maybe even hundreds of demons attacking all at once. Still, I had full command of my faculties and I didn't all of a sudden go on a sinning spree because of the demons. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295745635' post='2203231'] Then respect their experience. They were priests of God and exorcists. Amorth still is. Between the two of them, they've probably exorcised thousands of possession victims. Have you exorcised anyone? ~Sternhauser [/quote] Great, as I said - two can utterly destroy 10,000! Good for them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295745994' post='2203232'] "[1] Therefore, seeing we have this ministration, according as we have obtained mercy, we faint not; [2] But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the word of God; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God. [3] And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus." Guess who the "god of this world" is. St. Paul said it, not me. [/quote] Can I have two guesses? Scripture is awesome. Satan can't have complete control of a human being unless the human being allows him. And he isn't limitless. Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295746262' post='2203235'] Can I have two guesses? Scripture is awesome. Satan can't have complete control of a human being unless the human being allows him. [/quote] You continue to refuse to distinguish between power over the soul and power over the body. Satan can be given (by God) power over the body. He necessarily cannot have power over the soul unless it is given to him by choice by us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295746349' post='2203236'] You continue to refuse to distinguish between power over the soul and power over the body. Satan can be given (by God) power over the body. He necessarily cannot have power over the soul unless it is given to him by choice by us. [/quote] Satan can only influence a person through their spirit, not through their body - sorry! You guys are giving people a right to sin by saying, I didn't want to do it, but Satan made me do it! It makes a great hollywood movie, but it isn't true! Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295746097' post='2203233'] Demons can attack, and I've almost suffered through two minor strokes because of spiritual attacks from dozens, maybe even hundreds of demons attacking all at once. Still, I had full command of my faculties and I didn't all of a sudden go on a sinning spree because of the demons.[/quote] [i]Who here has said that the Demons can force a man to do something against his will? [/i]That is not the question here! You said that demons cannot physcially move anyone's body against his will. [i]Humans[/i] can, but demons, vastly more powerful, cannot? [quote]Great, as I said - two can utterly destroy 10,000! Good for them![/quote] Yet you deny their wisdom and say that demons cannot act through a human's body. And simultaneously, you deny scripture. ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295746445' post='2203237'] Satan can only influence a person through their spirit, not through their body - sorry! You guys are giving people a right to sin by saying, I didn't want to do it, but Satan made me do it! It makes a great hollywood movie, but it isn't true! [/quote] [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295746504' post='2203239'] [i]Who here has said that the Demons can force a man to do something against his will? [/i]That is not the question here! You said that demons cannot move anyone against their will. Humans can, but demons, vastly more powerful, cannot? Yet you deny their wisdom and say that demons cannot act through a human's body. And simultaneously, you deny scripture. ~Sternhauser [/quote] The most intelligent Sternhauser says it as well as I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295746445' post='2203237'] Satan can only influence a person through their spirit, not through their body - sorry! You guys are giving people a right to sin by saying, I didn't want to do it, but Satan made me do it! It makes a great hollywood movie, but it isn't true! [/quote] You do not understand the differences among a demon's act, a human act, and an act of man. That is your fault, not ours. No one is saying that demons can make a human [i]will[/i] or [i]choose[/i] anything. But if a [i]human[/i] can physically move someone's body contrary to his will, then certainly a demon can. If another human grasps your arm, overpowers you, and punches someone else with your hand, have you "sinned?" Has the other person "made" [i]you[/i] do [i]anything?[/i] Sin is in the will, not in physical behaviors beyond one's control. If one loses control of one's bladder in church, one has not sinned. If one deliberately urinates in church, he has sinned. Do you not see the difference? Your statements have zero scriptural, theological or demonological basis. ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 This is what happens when you place your own 'authority' over the true authority of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295746694' post='2203242'] You do not understand the differences among a demon's act, a human act, and an act of man. That is your fault, not ours. No one is saying that demons can make a human [i]will[/i] or [i]choose[/i] anything. But if a [i]human[/i] can physically move someone's body contrary to his will, then certainly a demon can. If another human grasps your arm, overpowers you, and punches someone else with your hand, have you "sinned?" Has the other person "made" [i]you[/i] do [i]anything?[/i] Sin is in the will, not in physical behaviors beyond one's control. If one loses control of one's bladder in church, one has not sinned. If one deliberately urinates in church, he has sinned. Do you not see the difference? Your statements have zero scriptural, theological or demonological basis. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Actually, this is an awesome reason why I will never belong to the Catholic faith. If someone said to me, Satan made my body pick up a knife and stab that person, I would only laugh, call them nuts, and walk away. Apparently, it is a good enough explanation for you. Your entire theology is based upon one thing - fear - be afraid that God will take away any defense you have and a demon can then make you do things you wouldn't want to do. You have no defense, you have no recourse if a demon uses your body to accomplish evil in the world. Sorry, because this is based upon the emotion of fear, this teaching is null and void - because here is some good theology - God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Your teachings that demons can force people's bodies to do things they wouldn't want to do neither empowers, loves, or sounds sane to me - no matter how much you try to say it is. The only way a demon can use another person's body is if the person allows them - period end of story. Personally, if a demon asked me if it can inhabit me (which usually happens in dreams of people who do get possessed) - I'd send it to hell in Jesus Name! Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295755606' post='2203274'] Actually, this is an awesome reason why I will never belong to the Catholic faith. [/quote] FAIL, there are absolutely no awesome reasons to never belong to the Catholic Faith.... edited to add smiley... Edited January 23, 2011 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1295757661' post='2203276'] FAIL, there are absolutely no awesome reasons to never belong to the Catholic Faith.... edited to add smiley... [/quote] I'm sorry DS, but to accept a theology that says that at any moment a demon can force a person to do something that is against their will is Bat croutons Crazy theology that I would tell the people telling me that they should go back on the meds. Fortunately, I don't belong to your faith and I reject that theology outright. It's Bat croutons Crazy stuff. It's great for Hollywood stories, but. . . not for reality. This is what demonic possession really is - When someone starts hearing voices telling them to run over a person, or just a voice telling them to do this or that, and the person becomes so afraid of not obeying the voice because they believe it is a sin to do otherwise, that is demonic possession because you just gave your will over to a demon who is deceiving you! I can accept that theology of demonic possession because it is accurate and true - but the other one - where someone can be taken over by a demon and their bodies do something against their will is not in the Bible - you must give up your will to the spirit - that is the gift of free will - not even a demon can force us to do things we don't want to do - but if we give up our wills to obey an evil spirit - than they can tell us to do anything! [quote]1 Corinthians 14:31-33For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. [b]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [/b] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [/quote] In other words, there is nothing that can override us if we don't first allow it - because my spirit is my spirit, and if I don't want to do something that a demon wants, then it can force my body to do that! Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295755606' post='2203274'] Actually, this is an awesome reason why I will never belong to the Catholic faith. If someone said to me, Satan made my body pick up a knife and stab that person, I would only laugh, call them nuts, and walk away. Apparently, it is a good enough explanation for you.[/quote] You are plainly contradicting scripture. How do you explain the three passages I mentioned? Why do you say that it is irrational? What is your logical contradiction of the possibility that a demon can use another person's body? How many exorcisms have you performed? [quote]Your entire theology is based upon one thing - fear - be afraid that God will take away any defense you have and a demon can then make you do things you wouldn't want to do. You have no defense, you have no recourse if a demon uses your body to accomplish evil in the world. Sorry, because this is based upon the emotion of fear, this teaching is null and void - because here is some good theology - God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind[/quote] You know, Mark, you make a lot of rash judgments. I'm not afraid of Satan or his toadies. Why would I be afraid of that baboon, Satan, and his pack of flying monkeys? God lets Satan do as much evil as he can. Anything that happens is allowed by God. He is the final arbiter of what Satan may or may not do. I've got nothing to be afraid of. Neither did the Catholic saints, such as St. Teresa of Avila, who said that she was more afraid of people who were afraid of the devil than the devil himself. Or St. John Vianney, who was awakened by the pompousaurus rex himself, when he came into his room in the form of a smoke-breathing dragon. St. John Vianney opened his eyes, said, "Oh, it's only you," and went back to bed. St. Therese of Lisieux said that the demon she saw seemed afraid of [i]her.[/i] That's the Catholic theology on such matters. It doesn't sound very fearful to me. Does it sound fearful to you? [quote]Your teachings that demons can force people's bodies to do things they wouldn't want to do neither empowers, loves, or sounds sane to me - no matter how much you try to say it is. The only way a demon can use another person's body is if the person allows them - period end of story.[/quote] That's not what scripture teaches. That's one of them thar "doctrines of men." ~Sternhauser Edited January 23, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295758279' post='2203278'] That's not what scripture teaches. That's one of them thar "doctrines of men." ~Sternhauser [/quote] Go back on your meds. Demons can not take over the free will of a human being unless the human being releases it to a demon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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