Demonic Possession

[Lil Red]

Donna,

[Donna]

Redhead

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1296419575' post='2206761']
And my argument is

She can call upon Christ, even though she is possessed - and cast that demon into hell, and no demon can force her to do anything she doesn't already want to do and that is why she is still 100 per cent accountable for her actions.

According to your theology, it was okay for Judas to betray Jesus once Satan entered him!

I didn't misunderstand your argument, I just reject it for what it is, junk theology. [/quote]

Fact: People can be forced to do things against thier will. It happens very often. Tourettes is just one example.
People with TS--which is [i]not[/i] caused by an evil aggressive demon with a will all its own--cannot just get rid of TS. Can they pray to God and badda-bing, badda-bang, just be rid of it? I'm sure some could pray, and if it were God's Will, they wouldn't have TS anymore. But, I'm also sure there are many who prayed with compelete faith and sincerity who [i]weren't[/i] cured of TS, or cancer, of huntngton's, or palsy, or scoliosis, or whatever it is they want to be rid of.

So, why do you think that people who are possessed by an evil spirit with a will all its own, which probably doesn't want to let them go, are 1) not forced to do that which they do not want to do and (2) could get rid of the evil aggressive spirit with a will all its own at any time they wish?
Judas probably wasn't possessed. In fact, I'm rather sure he wasn't. There was no spirit inside him forcing him to betray Jesus. Sure, Judas was filled with evil, but that doesn't mean there was a spirit actually possessing him. As for the possessed man who ran toward Jesus.... maybe the act of running was of his own accord. Maybe when one is possessed they can still do [i]some[/i] things under their own power (like people with TS). Of course, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are possessed only because they want to do be and could get rid of the demon at any time they wish. Considering this, one could think of the demon as a guard who went to sleep, and the possessed one as a prisoner who can do things that he couldn't when the guard was awake. But that doesn't mean the prisoner can escape or that he can get rid of the guard. Rather, when the guard awakes again, the prisoner is back unter the guard's complete control once more. And the prisoner can pray all he wants, but if it's not God's Will to remove him from prison, he won't be removed.

Your logic says that if someone with cancer or TS doesn't want it anymore, all they need do is pray and they won't have it anymore. Your logic says that everyone who dies of cancer of huntington's dies because they have no faith. You assume that things cannot happen to people outside of their influence and that our faithful prayers are always answered, even if God Wills otherwise.

Your argument has no basis. Your conclusion is arbitrary. I'm sorry if this offends you but your belief has no basis, you have no experience to speak from, and no logic. That, if anything, adds up to junk theology.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Tally Marx

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
Fact: People can be forced to do things against thier will. It happens very often. Tourettes is just one example.
People with TS--which is [i]not[/i] caused by an evil aggressive demon with a will all its own--cannot just get rid of TS. Can they pray to God and badda-bing, badda-bang, just be rid of it? I'm sure some could pray, and if it were God's Will, they wouldn't have TS anymore. But, I'm also sure there are many who prayed with compelete faith and sincerity who [i]weren't[/i] cured of TS, or cancer, of huntngton's, or palsy, or scoliosis, or whatever it is they want to be rid of.
[/quote]

While I see the analogy you're trying to make, it is inherently impossible to actually [i]force[/i] a person's will. A person's will, by its essence, is free. It may be weakened, pressure may be put upon it, and it may be contradicted, but it is never [i]forced/broken. [/i]Tourette's syndrome is not an example of a person being "forced" to do something against his will, anymore than a heroin addict is "forced" to inject heroin into his arm, or a person is "forced" to sneeze. It's can be partly willed, completely willed, or not at all willed. Tourette's falls into the category of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." It is not really comparable to possession. Possession is more comparable to a person involuntarily losing control of his or her body, as in the case in rape. In a rape, they're not "making" your will choose anything. Tourette's is a physical problem, but the physical problem can often be remedied through repeated acts of the will, which actually change the biological processes that cause the problem. It is definitely one of the more fascinating (and cruel) "mental" illnesses.

~Sternhauser
[i]

[/i]

Edited February 2, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296682734' post='2207897']
While I see the analogy you're trying to make, it is inherently impossible to actually [i]force[/i] a person's will. A person's will, by its essence, is free. It may be weakened, pressure may be put upon it, and it may be contradicted, but it is never [i]forced/broken. [/i]Tourette's syndrome is not an example of a person being "forced" to do something against his will, anymore than a heroin addict is "forced" to inject heroin into his arm, or a person is "forced" to sneeze. It's can be partly willed, completely willed, or not at all willed. Tourette's falls into the category of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." It is not really comparable to possession. Possession is more comparable to a person involuntarily losing control of his or her body, as in the case in rape. In a rape, they're not "making" your will choose anything. Tourette's is a physical problem, but the physical problem can often be remedied through repeated acts of the will, which actually change the biological processes that cause the problem. It is definitely one of the more fascinating (and cruel) "mental" illnesses.

~Sternhauser
[i]

[/i]
[/quote]

I know that the will cannot be forced, and I did not say anything to imply to contrary. I said, "People can be forced to do things against their will." Not that their will was forced, but that their actions were forced.
Perhaps my analogy is weak, and there are mild cases of TS where one can prevent a tic by purposefully smiling or moving in a way that "distracts" the body from the original movement (the tic). But, this isn't easy in any case, or even possible in some-- and it's the latter I was thinking of. But you are right; rape would be a better comparison to make. Thank you, Stern.

[MithLuin]

There is a line in the movie Training Day where his new boss taunts him for a major indiscretion saying 'It's not like anyone put a gun to your head," and laughing...because he most certainly [i]did[/i] put a gun to the trainee's head and forced him to take a hit of cocaine? (I forget which drug now). Will he lose his job if he tests positive for drugs? Oh most certainly. But he hardly took them willingly.

I realize that his boss did not break his will - merely made him choose between taking drugs and instant death, with a reminder of his wife and kid back home to boot. But...that's not much of a choice.

'The devil made me do it' is no excuse...but I leave the judgment of souls up to God. If there are extenuating circumstances of demonic possession, what may appear to me to be a grievous mortal sin may only be venial. Freely chosen - one of the requirements for mortal sin - can (at times) be alleviated by something as simple as ignorance or depression. I am not going to let people off the hook for their actions - merely pointing out that perhaps Jesus would.

My father has fond memories of his great uncle, who would invite him and his brother down to serve midnight mass at Christmas. But I never met him. He was my great-great-uncle, and was born before the turn of the last century (c. 1890). His baby sister died in 2000; she was 98. I know his name and have visited the house where he grew up, but that's all. I don't have any first hand tales of him acting as an exorcist, I'm just aware that he was.

[abrideofChrist]

If you would like a reliable treatment on demonic possession according to Catholic theology, I suggest you read this link of a book by a learned Dominican under Chapter 14: [url="http://www.domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/default.htm"]HERE[/url]

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']1) not forced to do that which they do not want to do and (2) could get rid of the evil aggressive spirit with a will all its own at any time they wish? [/quote]

Because Satan is the father of all lies. His power is lies. He can only lie. That is the only thing he can do. Possession, lies, and loving and making lies and hypnotism (convincing people that they must do something) are all closely related things.

[quote]1 Kings 22:22
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.[/quote]

[quote] John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/quote]

According to God, Satan is a liar, and anything we think he can do is a lie, because he can only lie. The people may think they can't act, but they can - they can pray - even if it is only in their mind - and God can respond to that and free them from that situation. Or do you think Jesus wasn't telling the truth when he said this.

[quote]Luke 4:18-19

[sup][/sup]The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [sup][/sup]To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.[/quote]


He has either set people at liberty who have been bruised, like someone who is demonically possesed, or not. He has either preached deliverance or not. He has either given sight or not to the blind. Because he has, Satan's lies that he can control you are defeated. he can't control anybody, he's powerless!

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
Judas probably wasn't possessed. In fact, I'm rather sure he wasn't. There was no spirit inside him forcing him to betray Jesus. Sure, Judas was filled with evil, but that doesn't mean there was a spirit actually possessing him. [/quote]

[quote]Luke 22:3-4

[b]Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.[/b]
[/quote]

What part of Satan entering Judas don't I understand? Yes, I was completely wrong.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
As for the possessed man who ran toward Jesus.... maybe the act of running was of his own accord. Maybe when one is possessed they can still do [i]some[/i] things under their own power (like people with TS). Of course, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are possessed only because they want to do be and could get rid of the demon at any time they wish. [/quote]

First, nobody can get rid of a demon, only God can do so on the person's behalf.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
Considering this, one could think of the demon as a guard who went to sleep, and the possessed one as a prisoner who can do things that he couldn't when the guard was awake. But that doesn't mean the prisoner can escape or that he can get rid of the guard. Rather, when the guard awakes again, the prisoner is back unter the guard's complete control once more. And the prisoner can pray all he wants, but if it's not God's Will to remove him from prison, he won't be removed.[/quote]

Not a very good analogy. Satan can't imprison anybody anymore. His power is utterly destroyed by Christ.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
Your logic says that if someone with cancer or TS doesn't want it anymore, all they need do is pray and they won't have it anymore. Your logic says that everyone who dies of cancer of huntington's dies because they have no faith. You assume that things cannot happen to people outside of their influence and that our faithful prayers are always answered, even if God Wills otherwise. [/quote]

Putting words in my mouth. . . good for you.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1296678668' post='2207864']
Your argument has no basis. Your conclusion is arbitrary. I'm sorry if this offends you but your belief has no basis, you have no experience to speak from, and no logic. That, if anything, adds up to junk theology.
[/quote]

The above is a refute to what you have explained to me through scripture.

Satan has no power anymore, it is destroyed in God's truth and light - we have been set free by Christ. Satan can never control somebody's body - he can only lie to us and influence, but he can't force us to do anything!

Edited February 3, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296689743' post='2207979']
There is a line in the movie Training Day where his new boss taunts him for a major indiscretion saying 'It's not like anyone put a gun to your head," and laughing...because he most certainly [i]did[/i] put a gun to the trainee's head and forced him to take a hit of cocaine? (I forget which drug now). Will he lose his job if he tests positive for drugs? Oh most certainly. But he hardly took them willingly.

I realize that his boss did not break his will - merely made him choose between taking drugs and instant death, with a reminder of his wife and kid back home to boot. But...that's not much of a choice.[/quote]

That is an interesting analogy - but it might just be my experience - Satan isn't that strong. . .

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296689743' post='2207979']
'The devil made me do it' is no excuse...but I leave the judgment of souls up to God. If there are extenuating circumstances of demonic possession, what may appear to me to be a grievous mortal sin may only be venial. Freely chosen - one of the requirements for mortal sin - can (at times) be alleviated by something as simple as ignorance or depression. I am not going to let people off the hook for their actions - merely pointing out that perhaps Jesus would. [/quote]

Someone will have to explain those kinds of catagories to me - because to me, all sins required Jesus to die on the cross for - so is any one of them any worse or better than any other. After all, Jesus said - if any man say this is the least of sins, and teach others, he shall be the least in heaven.

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296689743' post='2207979']
My father has fond memories of his great uncle, who would invite him and his brother down to serve midnight mass at Christmas. But I never met him. He was my great-great-uncle, and was born before the turn of the last century (c. 1890). His baby sister died in 2000; she was 98. I know his name and have visited the house where he grew up, but that's all. I don't have any first hand tales of him acting as an exorcist, I'm just aware that he was.
[/quote]

Your family has a proud heritage. People in this kind of ministry are on the front lines. How much worse would our world be if there weren't Godly men who stood in the front lines and took the brunt of what Satan has at his disposal.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1296703862' post='2208054']
Because Satan is the father of all lies. His power is lies. He can only lie. That is the only thing he can do. Possession, lies, and loving and making lies and hypnotism (convincing people that they must do something) are all closely related things.

[/quote]

Personally I'm a little confused about this possession thing. I don't know what the difference is between being possessed and the normal influence that satan has over us all. Certainly I've heard even our retired Bishop make the quote that we can never make the excuse "satan made me do it!" But I do know that satan can influence physical events though. How often are people tested in their faith by bad experiences in the Church by uncharitable people. I have experienced it myself and had our RCIA enquirers complain of things that must have satan as the source. Personally I feel tested almost continuously and have even reckoned that events that occurred at a critical time were probably satan attempting to destroy me or prevent me from achieving, but other events have miraculously occurred that have saved me which I attribute to God. Sometimes some of the things that we do seem to be impulse which I think is satan trying to make us do before we have a chance to realise how dumb the action is. Look at what many criminals do which can only be said to be really dumb. satan is not only making them sin but also making a but-head out of them. My experience has also been that the longer we have practised a particular sin the easier it is for satan to force us to repeat it, whereas by continuous resisting and prayer we can overcome a particular sin. Certainly though we can never defeat satan totally, we need Jesus to save us.

[abrideofChrist]

Mark, the Dominican that I linked to earlier talks about what temptation, possession, obsession, and other angelic/Divine/human activity is all about. If you read it, I think you will find it as helpful as I did. He's solid and explains things very well.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1296709247' post='2208086']
Personally I'm a little confused about this possession thing. I don't know what the difference is between being possessed and the normal influence that satan has over us all. Certainly I've heard even our retired Bishop make the quote that we can never make the excuse "satan made me do it!" But I do know that satan can influence physical events though. How often are people tested in their faith by bad experiences in the Church by uncharitable people. I have experienced it myself and had our RCIA enquirers complain of things that must have satan as the source. Personally I feel tested almost continuously and have even reckoned that events that occurred at a critical time were probably satan attempting to destroy me or prevent me from achieving, but other events have miraculously occurred that have saved me which I attribute to God. Sometimes some of the things that we do seem to be impulse which I think is satan trying to make us do before we have a chance to realise how dumb the action is. Look at what many criminals do which can only be said to be really dumb. satan is not only making them sin but also making a but-head out of them. My experience has also been that the longer we have practised a particular sin the easier it is for satan to force us to repeat it, whereas by continuous resisting and prayer we can overcome a particular sin. Certainly though we can never defeat satan totally, we need Jesus to save us.
[/quote]

Edited February 3, 2011 by abrideofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1296705110' post='2208058']
Someone will have to explain those kinds of catagories to me - because to me, all sins required Jesus to die on the cross for - so is any one of them any worse or better than any other. After all, Jesus said - if any man say this is the least of sins, and teach others, he shall be the least in heaven.[/quote]
You're misquoting Jesus. He actually said, "Whoever, therefore, [i]breaks[/i] one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, [to sin likewise] shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [the commandments], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." To say that there is no difference in the gravity of sin is also to deny what Jesus teaches. Jesus says there is a difference in the gravity of sins: "He who betrayed me has the [i]greater[/i] sin." "Take the [i]beam[/i] out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to take the [i]speck[/i] out of your brother's eye."

[quote]Your family has a proud heritage. People in this kind of ministry are on the front lines. How much worse would our world be if there weren't Godly men who stood in the front lines and took the brunt of what Satan has at his disposal.[/quote]
A proud heritage? He was a Catholic priest and an exorcist. You've repeatedly said that anyone who believes what the Catholic Church teaches about possession is "bat-guano crazy." Make up your mind: does he have a proud heritage, or does he have a nut in his family tree?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 3, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1296741009' post='2208177']
Mark, the Dominican that I linked to earlier talks about what temptation, possession, obsession, and other angelic/Divine/human activity is all about. If you read it, I think you will find it as helpful as I did. He's solid and explains things very well.[/quote]

That author is extremely learned [i]and[/i] wise. The two don't usually come together in this day and age.

~Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296767035' post='2208304']

A proud heritage? He was a Catholic priest and an exorcist. You've repeatedly said that anyone who believes what the Catholic Church teaches about possession is "bat-guano crazy." Make up your mind: does he have a proud heritage, or does he have a nut in his family tree?

[/quote]

[i]*gently*[/i]

[b]SHE[/b]

I'm a woman

I have many nuts in my family tree, and I'm proud of them! [My entire family is Catholic for many generations on both sides - Irish and Bavarian ]





Mortal vs Venial.

All sin is, well, sin. Not all sin kills your soul, severs your connection to God completely, and damns your soul to hell for all eternity. After all, Jesus says if you break the 'little rules' you'll be least in the kingdom (so that's a bad thing), but you're still [i]in[/i] the kingdom.

A mortal sin is not something that you can do 'by mistake.' You don't 'accidentally' commit a mortal sin. It must be a serious/grave matter. We must know that it is seriously wrong. And...we freely choose to do it anyway. Under those circumstances...our thoughts words or actions have cut us off from God's grace. If you do something seriously wrong while a gun was to your head (or while your family was threatened), it's not considered to be a freely chosen action on your part. You did it, and you have to accept the consequences of what you did...but you probably aren't guilty of a mortal sin.

Venial sins damage our relationship with God, and also with others, but do not result in damnation. When the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...it's not referring to the little things. When proverbs says that even a just man falls seven times a day...it is. If anyone takes the little things for granted and starts saying 'God wouldn't mind if I were to...' or 'it doesn't matter....He'll forgive me...' they would be wrong. [That's what Jesus is warning about in the passage you brought up.] Sin is sin. But venial sins are the type of sins you could [i]forget[/i] to repent of, because you might not have even noticed you committed them!

Failure to repent of mortal sins means we remain in our sin and we suffer damnation when we die. Unless our consciences are totally shot, these are the types of sins that will worm away at us and bother us until we repent of them. You [i]know[/i] you are carrying this weight around with you...

[url=http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm]HERE[/url] is a brief explanation of mortal vs venial sins.

[quote]For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but [b]he himself will be saved,[/b] yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15[/quote]

Basically, if you muck up things, there are consequences. If you are in Christ Jesus, and still building 'straw', that suggests venial sins - you're doing the wrong thing, but you have not separated yourself from the grace of God. You have, however, made yourself 'least' in the kingdom, though not in a good way! If we commit mortal sins...and fail to repent...I think that it's time to lose the over-confidence about still being saved. Jesus is the judge of all men, and He will be just and merciful.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1296703862' post='2208054']
According to God, Satan is a liar, and anything we think he can do is a lie, because he can only lie. The people may think they can't act, but they can - they can pray - even if it is only in their mind - and God can respond to that and free them from that situation. Or do you think Jesus wasn't telling the truth when he said this.

[/quote]



satan has whatever power God allows him to have. satan could not possess anyone if God did not allow Him to. Like I said, you assume that God always answers our prayers the way we want Him to. What if His Will is for us to undergo these trials?





[quote] First, nobody can get rid of a demon, only God can do so on the person's behalf [/quote]

Exactly. And God will only do so if He sees it best for us.



[quote] Putting words in my mouth... good for you [/quote]


As I said, I was only following your logic. When one assumes that nothing can happen to people which they do not will, and that prayer can deliver them always, it's only logical to also say that if we aren't delivered from something, it is our fault that we aren't. As said I, you assume too much. You assume that God always answers our prayer in the way we wish; that He cannot will a trial to teach us something.


[quote]Satan can never control somebody's body - he can only lie to us and influence, but he can't force us to do anything![/quote]

The evidence is to the contrary. abrideofchrist gave a very good link. Maybe you should look at it.

[quote] What part of Satan entering Judas don't I understand? Yes, I was completely wrong. [/quote]

I could point out that "entering into Judas" doesn't necessarily mean a possession in the sense we are speaking of here (violent and typically unwilled, at least after the possession occurs), and could just mean a temptation (satan's influence--temptation--entered Judas' life/mind). But, there are some things in life I have found useless. One is pouring water into the ocean. The other is debating Bible quotes with Sola Scriptura people.