Don't Ask Don't Tell

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1293152264' post='2194196']
Catechism of the Catholic Church (Catechism of John Paul II)
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
[/quote]

Why did he add that? What was he afraid of? Was he afraid that Priests would preach against homosexuality? Or was he being "sensitive" to homosexual Catholic Priests?

I sure didn't know about this. I think that Priests and Catholic homosexuals are the only ones who know about this... Was this when he was clarifying Vatican II?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1293167484' post='2194235']
I'm not aware of any dorm room that it has not worked in.

Or any army. I haven't seen opponents of this present any empirical evidence that there will be a problem. There shouldn't be any shortange of such evidence as upwards of 20 armies around the world allow openly gay soldiers. The Israeli's have more tolerated it since the 80's-90's. If there is any evidence that this as had a deleterious effect on the IDF's capabilities as an effective fighting force I have not seen the opponents of open service present it.

This silence is, in my opinion, pretty telling.
[/quote]

Silence? I remember a suicide that made the news last year.

And there's no silence about problems with homosexuals in the Catholic church...

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1293167484' post='2194235']
I'm not aware of any dorm room that it has not worked in.

[/quote]

Well, there was that guy from NJ whose roommate was weirded out that he was being sexiled by his gay roommate...and chose the oh-so-mature response of leaving up his webcam and then posting a video of the two together on the internet. They were 18 year old freshmen...and the gay roommate responded by jumping off a bridge and killing himself (it's possible he wasn't out yet, but his roommate knew he was gay.)

I'd say that qualifies as 'not working out.'

I also know of a case where a lesbian stared dating her roommate, who (up until that point) had been straight.

But if people are afraid of unwanted advances, that can really happen anywhere. I had a friend who walked out of daily mass and got propositioned. Weirded him out, that's for sure! But he commented afterward that he was surprised that someone who attended daily mass would be confused on the Church's teaching on this topic....

My entire time in college I lived in co-ed dorms. When my mom was in college, she visited someone who had coed dorms....and coed bathrooms. [This was at Harvard, actually.] I'm pretty sure the military can figure out ways to make rules to eliminate potential problems.


....and I also know of a woman who was dying of CRJ (mad cow disease) and her partner was not able to request any time off from the military to be with her. Regardless of what I think of their relationship, denying comfort to the dying isn't exactly something to be proud of. [It's an extremely painful way to go, if you are curious.] The military is not like a normal job; they have a lot more say over your personal life. I can request a 'personal day' at work, and then spend it however I like. They have to put in reasons with their requests, and their commanding officers can deny the requests if they don't fit very particular criteria. They have lots of rules about spouses, because they know the family is very important - and they provide a lot of supports. Unlike most employers, they [i]provide[/i] housing and meals and a wide array of resources from swimming pools to shopping to classes....it's not like having a gym or day care in your office, it's a lot more extensive than that. While my brother-in-law was deployed to Afghanistan, my sister was provided by the military with so many hours of free child care per month (I think 10 hours/kid). The military does [i]not[/i] stay out of your personal business. Being off-base is not like being off-campus.

[add]

if your in the service of our country, "don't ask, don't tell; if your Catholic!"
everything else is fair game

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1293179728' post='2194246']
Why did he add that? What was he afraid of? Was he afraid that Priests would preach against homosexuality? Or was he being "sensitive" to homosexual Catholic Priests?

I sure didn't know about this. I think that Priests and Catholic homosexuals are the only ones who know about this... Was this when he was clarifying Vatican II?
[/quote]
are you for real?

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1293179728' post='2194246']
Why did he add that? What was he afraid of? Was he afraid that Priests would preach against homosexuality? Or was he being "sensitive" to homosexual Catholic Priests?

I sure didn't know about this. I think that Priests and Catholic homosexuals are the only ones who know about this... Was this when he was clarifying Vatican II?
[/quote]

Soo. You think homosexuals are less than human, and should be treated like garbage. And anyone who says they deserve compassion and being treated with dignity like everyone else is just crazy.

Unbelievable.

Edited December 24, 2010 by rizz_loves_jesus

[Micah]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1293167484' post='2194235']
I'm not aware of any dorm room that it has not worked in.

Or any army. I haven't seen opponents of this present any empirical evidence that there will be a problem. There shouldn't be any shortange of such evidence as upwards of 20 armies around the world allow openly gay soldiers. The Israeli's have more tolerated it since the 80's-90's. If there is any evidence that this as had a deleterious effect on the IDF's capabilities as an effective fighting force I have not seen the opponents of open service present it.

This silence is, in my opinion, pretty telling.
[/quote]

Hasan, just because something is feasible, just because something works, does not mean it is correct. Murder occurs everyday; it is not preposterous to assume that the government can and in some ways has sanctioned forms of murder. A'voila. I don't see the need to continue forming the argument.

The argument minor is built on the idea that it will rift the community of soldiers, who live in very close proximity to one another. None of the countries which began allowing homosexuals to openly serve, which has now peaked at 25, are similar to the U.S.. All of them have relatively small standing armies with no religious affiliation. As you say, %80 of Americans are Christian?

[Jesus_lol]

i dont know why people get so up in arms about the thought of a gay dude flirting with them. i wouldnt be interested, but a complimentis a compliment.

besides, if "unwanted advances" is the problem here, then lets be completely honest. most of the unwanted advances are between men and women. i have never seen an unwanted advance thing go on between two guys or two girls, but i have seen the aftermath of lots of heterosexual ones.

and "taking advantage" ?? currently heterosexual men hold the monopoly on violent rape, which is about as "unwanted" as you can get.

yeah, those beaver dam homosexuals sure are gonna upset our perfect relationships, get a clue.

[Micah]

[quote]i dont know why people get so up in arms about the thought of a gay dude flirting with them. i wouldnt be interested, but a complimentis a compliment.[/quote]

And a morally disordered one. You've been posting amongst Catholics to know as much Nick.

[quote]besides, if "unwanted advances" is the problem here, then lets be completely honest. most of the unwanted advances are between men and women. i have never seen an unwanted advance thing go on between two guys or two girls, but i have seen the aftermath of lots of heterosexual ones.[/quote]

The problem is more than that, as you can see from following the thread. Unwanted advances are the result of a perfectly normal and natural mating game. How often do you spy on homosexual gatherings to check out unwanted advances? haha..

[quote]and "taking advantage" ?? currently heterosexual men hold the monopoly on violent rape, which is about as "unwanted" as you can get.[/quote]


Maybe because they make up about half the world's population? That's like saying, currently homosexual men hold the monopoly on abusive homosexual relationships. No kiddin..

[quote]yeah, those beaver dam homosexuals sure are gonna upset our perfect relationships, get a clue.[/quote]


No sir. You must get a clue. Don't accept all the arbitrary social conclusions CNN slops to young adults these days. It's not hard to take a peek and notice some things are natural and others are not. Sheesh. Seriously, think about the purpose of sex for a moment.... Now think about what defines gender...

[4588686]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293211453' post='2194263']
Hasan, just because something is feasible, just because something works, does not mean it is correct. Murder occurs everyday; it is not preposterous to assume that the government can and in some ways has sanctioned forms of murder. A'voila. I don't see the need to continue forming the argument. [/QUOTE]

Does the Church teach as a matter f faith and morals that homosexuals can't serve in the military?

[QUOTE]The argument minor is built on the idea that it will rift the community of soldiers, who live in very close proximity to one another. None of the countries which began allowing homosexuals to openly serve, which has now peaked at 25, are similar to the U.S.. All of them have relatively small standing armies with no religious affiliation. As you say, %80 of Americans are Christian?
[/quote]


First of all, this is incorrect. Israel has a relatively large standing army. As every citizen must be in the army it has an army much larger relative to it's size than America and the IDF most certainly does have a religious affiliation. In fact a large portion of its officer corps is made up of religious fanatics from the settlements. America's military does not have a religious affiliation. Particular soldiers have religious affiliations. As it the case in every army outside of the communist world.

I understand the theory of the argument. Now provide evidence that that theory is valid. There should be lots of it.

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1293067838' post='2194039']
I know we've debated it to death whether it should or shouldn't be repealed, but I wonder what people think will happen now that it has been decided. For example, do you think it will be brought back up the next time a Republican is in the White House? What kind of issues do you think it will realistically cause in the ranks.

As a bit of extra fodder to chew on: Canada allowed gays to start serving openly almost 20 years ago. Two weeks ago they set new rules for transexuals in the military. Those who wish to change gender identity, even pre-op, or pre-hormonal treatment, or pre-anything except the desire to be a different sex, will be allowed to wear the uniform of their target gender. I suppose that means they will be allowed to move into the other barracks as well. The military paid for the first sex change surgery in 1998, 6 years after allowing gays. I wonder if the US military will do the same?
[/quote]

Canada has a military?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' timestamp='1293218162' post='2194286']
Canada has a military?
[/quote]
My husband was in the Canadian artillery. I could get him to lob some shells your way.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293216621' post='2194277']
And a morally disordered one. You've been posting amongst Catholics to know as much Nick.
[/quote]

just saying i wouldnt be interested, but i wouldnt be enraged either. i would treat it like any other unwanted advance and be polite.

[quote]
The problem is more than that, as you can see from following the thread. Unwanted advances are the result of a perfectly normal and natural mating game. How often do you spy on homosexual gatherings to check out unwanted advances? haha..
[/quote]

so unwanted advances are fine when they are heterosexual in nature? I would say that they are fine in both cases. where they stop being fine is when the advances continue after it has become clear that you are not interested. I have yet to hear of(locally) a gay guy who didnt back off when told that he was barking up the wrong tree, though i am sure it happens. But i sure know a lot of people who didnt get the hint and continued creepily onwards. The creepiness isnt mitigated by the fact that it is heterosexual in nature.

And i dont have to spy on anyone, you should know as we live in the same city that gay people dont live in their own isolated ghetto, i know a few personally, but the vast majority are just around not advertising anything.


[quote]
Maybe because they make up about half the world's population? That's like saying, currently homosexual men hold the monopoly on abusive homosexual relationships. No kiddin..
[/quote]

just saying that there is nothing intrinsic about gay males that will make unwanted sexual advances and rape increase if they are allowed to live their lives as they choose.


[quote]
No sir. You must get a clue. Don't accept all the arbitrary social conclusions CNN slops to young adults these days. It's not hard to take a peek and notice some things are natural and others are not. Sheesh. Seriously, think about the purpose of sex for a moment.... Now think about what defines gender...
[/quote]

Who the heck watches CNN anyways? It is a bastion of crappy and irrelevant reporting, rivalled only by Fox News. for some reason, while i dislike all the political biases and sneaky tricks I almost loathe CNN's general irrelevance and incompetance even more.


It can be argued that your view on homosexuals is equally arbitrary. If you take the bible out of the situation, you can still argue that homosexuality is unusual, but you cant really argue against it per se, nor advocate placing restrictions on homosexuals. So the choice to follow these specific bible passages while disregarding other passages around them as "out of date" or "irrelevant" seems completely arbitrary to me as well.


[quote name='SaintofVirtue']

Canada has a military?
[/quote]

I know you are saying it as a joke, but a larger percentage of our population has died fighting in WW1, WW2 and afghanistan than the USA. percentage wise, canada's rate of deaths in WW1 was 9 times higher.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1293225884' post='2194295']
My husband was in the Canadian artillery. I could get him to lob some shells your way.
[/quote]


[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1293261962' post='2194378']
I know you are saying it as a joke, but a larger percentage of our population has died fighting in WW1, WW2 and Afghanistan than the USA. percentage wise, Canada's rate of deaths in WW1 was 9 times higher.
[/quote]

Sorry, that joke was altogether inappropriate and it was quite naive of me to say it. I was not intending to belittle the sacrifice of the Canadian troops at all as they are brave, honorable men and women. I hold them in the same high regard I do our troops here.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1293217385' post='2194283']
Does the Church teach as a matter f faith and morals that homosexuals can't serve in the military?




[/quote]

Seriously awesome comment.