Don't Ask Don't Tell

[CatherineM]

I'm visualizing someone like my husband in the Canadian military, who decides he wants to be a woman, walking around in a female uniform, and using the woman's shower. I wouldn't let him wear a kilt to the wedding for fear that he might look like Santa Claus in drag.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1293130206' post='2194148']
Well, SCG is likely referring to Gaëtan Dugas, who is called 'Patient Zero' in [i]The Band Played On[/i], a book/movie about AIDS in the US in the 1980s. While it is true that Dugas was an extremely promiscuous gay man who traveled alot (he was a flight attendant), he did not become sexually active until 1972 at the age of 19. Certainly, he contributed to the spread of AIDS in the gay community of NYC, LA and San Fran. But he did not single-handedly bring AIDS to the US. The US had already seen the death of its first confirmed AIDS victim in 1969 (Robert R. in St. Louis) and he had experienced symptoms since 1966.

HIV was first brought to the US from Haiti in 1969, according to current research. ([url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7068574.stm]link[/url])

Personally, I don't Blame Canada for this...nor do I blame Haiti (which has enough of its own problems, to be fair). One could just as soon blame the European colonialists in the early 20th century who exacerbated the situation which led to SIV morphing into HIV in the first place. Regardless - HIV is a terrible virus, and many innocent people have been infected and had their lives destroyed.
[/quote]

Yes he is the French Canadian, and he's the guy I was referring to. I didn't know about the recent research linking AIDS to Haiti.

I don't blame Canada for AIDS, but I do blame them for this:

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1293067838' post='2194039']
Canada allowed gays to start serving openly almost 20 years ago. Two weeks ago they set new rules for transexuals in the military. Those who wish to change gender identity, even pre-op, or pre-hormonal treatment, or pre-anything except the desire to be a different sex, will be allowed to wear the uniform of their target gender. I suppose that means they will be allowed to move into the other barracks as well. The military paid for the first sex change surgery in 1998, 6 years after allowing gays. I wonder if the US military will do the same?
[/quote]

I think that they're crazy.

Homosexual behavior is definitely a moral issue and I interpret being "openly homosexual" as meaning behaving in a homosexual manner with other men. What else can it mean? Really what was the problem with "Don't ask, don't tell" (Keeping you private life private). It seems like a more professional approach to me.

Obviously the potential for sharing bathrooms and washrooms is that some of the homosexuals will engage in "openly homosexual" behavior.. I went to the University of Washington one summer and I'll tell you there were homosexuals engaging in "openly homosexual" behavior in the locker rooms. I saw things that I would have preferred to have never seen.. I completely understand why the changes in the rules makes some of the people in the military uncomfortable.

I like the philosophy that the Bible teaches. The bible -- and most cultures -- view homosexuality as taboo for very good reasons. I think that we're making a big mistake when we break that taboo.

I'm not really surprised by the position of many people on this board (I'm sure there are many people who agree with me but keep quiet). I've seen the Catholic church marginally support homosexuality (The "Dignity" Masses of the past) and we've all heard about boys getting molested by Priests and the ensuing lawsuits and criminal prosecution. The two are definitely connected.

Edited December 23, 2010 by southern california guy

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293144766' post='2194178']
How do modest, moral, or married female soldiers feel showering with a bunch of hyped up guys who go without female companionship for long periods of time, probably pretty uncomfortable. The same sort of discomfort these men will feel showering beside an openly gay soldier beside them.
[/quote]

You know that's a good point. I've heard that homosexuals tend to engage in more extreme behavior than heterosexuals -- more partners, and parties including drug use ("poppers"). Will the "openly homosexual" rules lead to more of that type of behavior within the military?

[MithLuin]

Ummm, [b]SCG,[/b] I seriously doubt that many people who post on this board view homosexuality in a favorable light. Catholics view homosexual behavior as immoral, of course. I understand that you speak from your experiences, as do others here.

Being 'openly homosexual' means that people can request leave when their partner is in the hospital - something they could not have done under 'Don't Ask Don't Tell.' Well, actually, I don't know if they can or not, but those are the types of things being 'open' about it means. It doesn't mean you can suddenly flirt in the barracks with impunity. We already have gays serving in the military - they've been using the bathrooms and showers. I honestly don't know what will change in the US military now. The only concrete difference so far is that you can't be thrown out of the military for being gay/lesbian.

I agree that getting the military to recognize homosexual partners as spouses is the 'next step' in this agenda.



[b]SCG[/b] - the behavior of military personnel is hardly completely exemplary. Near a base, you will find many tattoo parlors, strip clubs and bars. I don't know about the drug use, but you can certainly get in trouble for that if you are caught. You do [i]not[/i] get in trouble for prostitutes (usually).

Edited December 23, 2010 by MithLuin

[StMichael]

There are many.

Many men and women who join are devout Christians, how soon before they are denied the clergy because the Bible preaches "hate speech?" Or if a solider objects to this, they are thrown out because they made a gay remark?

Allowance of openly gay soldiers will lead to an elite membership that will be protected at the cost of us being able to defend our nation. This is an unneeded distraction and one that military leaders have said no to while we are in the midst of fighting 2 wars.

And Don't Ask, Don't Tell is not just for gays, no one needs to know what you like, just that you know how to fire a gun.

The Roman Empire ended this way.

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1293148021' post='2194185']
Ummm, [b]SCG,[/b] I seriously doubt that many people who post on this board view homosexuality in a favorable light. Catholics view homosexual behavior as immoral, of course. I understand that you speak from your experiences, as do others here.

Being 'openly homosexual' means that people can request leave when their partner is in the hospital - something they could not have done under 'Don't Ask Don't Tell.' Well, actually, I don't know if they can or not, but those are the types of things being 'open' about it means. It doesn't mean you can suddenly flirt in the barracks with impunity. We already have gays serving in the military - they've been using the bathrooms and showers. I honestly don't know what will change in the US military now. The only concrete difference so far is that you can't be thrown out of the military for being gay.

I agree that getting the military to recognize homosexual partners as spouses is the 'next step' in this agenda.
[/quote]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2358.htm"][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b][/url] ([i]Catechism of John Paul II[/i])
[b]2358[/b] [u]The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible[/u]. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. [u]They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity[/u]. [u]Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided[/u]. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/quote]From what I heard and understood of the bill, its good. It gives the military the flexibility and freedom to determine how they will repeal it. It also still enforces the policy of don't ask don't tell, respecting privacy and secrecy, just doesn't discriminate against members of the military who choose to openly express such inclinations. Unless I am misunderstanding...

The United States still has a very victorian and homophobic attitudes... So I could understand the hesitance of some about this. But I don't see the issue, their already in the military!!! This changes NOTHING, except now their careers won't be ruined unjustly.

[4588686]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1293139094' post='2194160']
From CNN "There will be no special bathroom or housing facilities to accommodate homosexuals, " Are they nutz
[/quote]



I live in a dorm hall that is about 1/3rd gay, that had shared bathrooms, and my roommate was gay.


How was the experience?


Exactly the same as every other dorm hall I've lived on.

[4588686]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293144425' post='2194175']
This is a bigger victory for gay groups. This door opens a ton of problems, including acknowledging partners, tax payers paying for housing, etc. for these partners and at some point the military being forced to acknowledge gay "marriage."

Our military is now opened to being used as a battle ground to progress a gay agenda.

Furthermore, what is extremely disturbing is that courts are now dictating what our military does or not, as opposed to Congress. It is getting so that we really are seeing no need for a Congress as they are being subverted at every turn, except to simply rubber stamp what the other branches say they want.
[/quote]

Congress did pass this.

[4588686]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1293147890' post='2194184']
You know that's a good point. I've heard that homosexuals tend to engage in more extreme behavior than heterosexuals -- more partners, and parties including drug use ("poppers"). Will the "openly homosexual" rules lead to more of that type of behavior within the military?
[/quote]



Yes.

This now means that soldiers will be at the very least permitted, and more likely coerced, to engaged in meth and X fueled gay sex orgies.



Seriously?

[Micah]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1293165805' post='2194228']
I live in a dorm hall that is about 1/3rd gay, that had shared bathrooms, and my roommate was gay.


How was the experience?


Exactly the same as every other dorm hall I've lived on.
[/quote]

lol, cool anecdote. Glad it worked out in your dorm.

[4588686]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293148389' post='2194186']
There are many.

Many men and women who join are devout Christians, how soon before they are denied the clergy because the Bible preaches "hate speech?" Or if a solider objects to this, they are thrown out because they made a gay remark?[/QUOTE]

Gays make up 2.8% of the military and 2-10% of the American population. Christians make up 77% of the military and 80% of the population.

Do I really need to finish this argument?



[QUOTE]Allowance of openly gay soldiers will lead to an elite membership that will be protected at the cost of us being able to defend our nation.[/QUOTE]
If by elite you mean that they will have the same rights as straight soldiers (minus spousal benefits that straight soldiers have) then yes, gay soldiers will constitute an elite membership.

[QUOTE]This is an unneeded distraction and one that military leaders have said no to while we are in the midst of fighting 2 wars.[/QUOTE]

The military leadership did not say 'no'. They said yes. Except for the Commandant of the Marine Corps.

[QUOTE]And Don't Ask, Don't Tell is not just for gays, no one needs to know what you like, just that you know how to fire a gun.[/QUOTE]

Good to know that you see soldiers as gun firing robots.

[QUOTE]The Roman Empire ended this way.


[/quote]


By allowing gays to serve openly in the military?

[sixpence]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1293069893' post='2194052']
I sure hope not! Of course we're supposed to be "compassionate" and "supportive" of "special" people -- like homosexuals...

Well I for one am not. I think the Canadians were nuts. But perhaps the pressure from all of the French Canadians (Not that there's anything wrong with them!) was just too much to overcome.

Didn't some French Canadian guy in Canada introduce AIDS to North America?
[/quote]

don't be hatin' on my relatives

[sixpence]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1293152264' post='2194196']
From what I heard and understood of the bill, its good. It gives the military the flexibility and freedom to determine how they will repeal it. It also still enforces the policy of don't ask don't tell, respecting privacy and secrecy, just doesn't discriminate against members of the military who choose to openly express such inclinations. Unless I am misunderstanding...

The United States still has a very victorian and homophobic attitudes... So I could understand the hesitance of some about this. But I don't see the issue, their already in the military!!! This changes NOTHING, except now their careers won't be ruined unjustly.
[/quote]

this

[4588686]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1293166760' post='2194231']
lol, cool anecdote. Glad it worked out in your dorm.
[/quote]

I'm not aware of any dorm room that it has not worked in.

Or any army. I haven't seen opponents of this present any empirical evidence that there will be a problem. There shouldn't be any shortange of such evidence as upwards of 20 armies around the world allow openly gay soldiers. The Israeli's have more tolerated it since the 80's-90's. If there is any evidence that this as had a deleterious effect on the IDF's capabilities as an effective fighting force I have not seen the opponents of open service present it.

This silence is, in my opinion, pretty telling.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1293148389' post='2194186']
Many men and women who join are devout Christians, how soon before they are denied the clergy because the Bible preaches "hate speech?" [/quote]


Additionally, I heard on the news how one chaplain wondered whether he would be able to preach what the Bible says about homosexuality and homosexual behavior.