Harry Potter

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311020033' post='2269592']
Agreed. I wish more parents would take a stand then against the new vampire thrill then.
[/quote]

THIS I agree with you on. Not because I've got anything against vampires but because Twilight, the books that started the craze, have so much more disturbing and harmful material than any of of the Harry Potter books. I wish people would focus on that instead of HP but that's just me.

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1311131721' post='2270788']
THIS I agree with you on. Not because I've got anything against vampires but because Twilight, the books that started the craze, have so much more disturbing and harmful material than any of of the Harry Potter books. I wish people would focus on that instead of HP but that's just me.
[/quote]

I also agree. I read harry potter befor Twilight and I have never been harmed in any way. But Twilight was one series I regret reading. At the same time I do feel blessed because I can inform people of how harmful these books are...

Sorry this is a little off topic.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Of all my experience with Harry Potter fans (which is quite extensive), I have yet to meet anyone who was interested in the occult because of the books. And I'm speaking from 5th grade until now, and I'm currently 22.

I mean, I'm sure it happens every once in a while... but I'd guess that the individual in question likely already had interests in the occult or other problems that would cause them to look into that direction.

Is the story a perfection Christian allegory? By no means. But neither is most of literature. Should we limit our libraries to books written by Christians, or better yet, Catholics alone?

[sixpence]

I think Harry Potter is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic readers/ viewers. I do not believe you have read them if you feel that they will be a negative influence on children!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1311131507' post='2270777']
You don't have to be Catholic to believe in God. Also this says nothing about the magic in his books--even if he did love God very much the fact of the matter is that he has magic in his books just like J.K. Rowling. Him being Catholic doesn't change that at all.
[/quote]

Tolkien used magic in an entirely different way the Rowling. I know it may be pointless to repeat but that has to hold bearing, because the intentionality is vitally important.

[quote]
Spot on... what?
[/quote]

Sorry, I should have been more clear but I meant as in her novels are not spot on ethic wise which can lead to a certain sense of realitivism.

[quote]

What themes do you have a problem with? Also... some people are gay. It happens. I'm not condoning the lifestyle at all, but there's not even any evidence in the books that Dumbledore was even in a relationship with any other man. Looks to me like he lived a life that the Church says is acceptable for homosexuals--celibate.
[/quote]
Yes, but my problem from my perspective is that there is no reason for it to even matter in the series at all. Every detail in a novel should have a purpose, which leads to good story telling, which Rowling has I won't argue that. Yet, here I find this detail superflous and more or less a popular vote crowd pleaser.

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311175937' post='2271558']
Of all my experience with Harry Potter fans (which is quite extensive), I have yet to meet anyone who was interested in the occult because of the books. And I'm speaking from 5th grade until now, and I'm currently 22.

I mean, I'm sure it happens every once in a while... but I'd guess that the individual in question likely already had interests in the occult or other problems that would cause them to look into that direction.

Is the story a perfection Christian allegory? By no means. But neither is most of literature. Should we limit our libraries to books written by Christians, or better yet, Catholics alone?
[/quote]

I have to echo the same, but the fact is that the interest can still be initated and there was a boom of sales of books related to occult at the start of this series coming out.

I won't say we shouldn't limit our libraries at all. Only to make be sure to be aware of the things that can be implied and underlying in books.

[ThePenciledOne]

Double Post.

Edited July 20, 2011 by ThePenciledOne

[havok579257]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311177757' post='2271580']
Tolkien used magic in an entirely different way the Rowling. I know it may be pointless to repeat but that has to hold bearing, because the intentionality is vitally important.



Sorry, I should have been more clear but I meant as in her novels are not spot on ethic wise which can lead to a certain sense of realitivism.


Yes, but my problem from my perspective is that there is no reason for it to even matter in the series at all. Every detail in a novel should have a purpose, which leads to good story telling, which Rowling has I won't argue that. Yet, here I find this detail superflous and more or less a popular vote crowd pleaser.



I have to echo the same, but the fact is that the interest can still be initated and there was a boom of sales of books related to occult at the start of this series coming out.

I won't say we shouldn't limit our libraries at all. Only to make be sure to be aware of the things that can be implied and underlying in books.
[/quote]



so how is magic ok in lotr but not in harry potter? it seems that you like lotr. is it because you like lotr that makes magic ok? is magic in wizard of oz ok? i mean there is quite a bit(bad witch, good witch,magic shoes), yet the vatican lists it as one of the top 45 movies.

I would really like to know your qualifyer why some movies with magic are ok but others are not. I understand if you said all magic in movies are bad. although that's not what your saying. your saying magic in certain movies are ok.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I think this excerpt from Fr. Robert Barron's article on the subject helps clarify the use of magic in Rowling's books:

[quote][size=1][font=Verdana]It seems to me that the supernatural elements of the series are meant rather obviously as metaphorical. Rowling employs them to re-enchant a world that has been dis-enchanted by the modern insistence that this world is limited to what the senses can immediately perceive. Further, the “powers” of magic can be understood as expressions of the energies that emerge in the process of maturation from childhood, through adolescence, to adulthood. If there is a message Rowling seems to impart in regards to these “powers, ” it is that they are meant for a purpose higher than self-gratification and find their fullest expression in our willingness to love others without having perfect understanding of why things in life are the way that they are. Unlike the avatars of modernity that insist that everything is ultimately explainable, Rowling seems to be presenting the idea that the explanation that might ultimately be the best one is that life is essentially mysterious, and it is precisely this quality that provokes us to wonder. I do not want to leave the impression that I do not take the cautions of Rowling’s critics seriously. But I would inquire of them (though Rowling’s works are not in the same category as Shakespeare) what her critics make of the supernatural elements that drive the plots of [i]Macbeth[/i], [i]The Tempest[/i] or [i]Midsummer Night’s Dream[/i]? Are these dangerous? I guess the answer would be that such literary offerings are not for children. What about [i]Grimm’s Fairy Tale[/i][i]s[/i]? [i]The Odyssey[/i]?[i] Beowulf[/i]? [/quote][/font][/size]

[url="http://www.wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/July-2011/Movies-The-Passion-of-%28and-for%29-Harry-Potter.aspx"][size=2][font=Verdana]His full article can be found here.[/font][/size][/url]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1311714941' post='2276359']
so how is magic ok in lotr but not in harry potter? it seems that you like lotr. is it because you like lotr that makes magic ok? is magic in wizard of oz ok? i mean there is quite a bit(bad witch, good witch,magic shoes), yet the vatican lists it as one of the top 45 movies.

I would really like to know your qualifyer why some movies with magic are ok but others are not. I understand if you said all magic in movies are bad. although that's not what your saying. your saying magic in certain movies are ok.
[/quote]


Well, I can't say anything about Wizard of Oz, since I've seen it. As far as why LOTR has primacy over Harry Potter, is on the grounds of how the magic system in Middle Earth is used as opposed to how it is used in HP.

The magic in LOTR, (used by the good side that is) is used strictly as an aid if only as a last resort, where it merely enhances and is used as a means. This is all done in subtle ways though nothing too obvious at times, since the elves, who are inherently magical deny often that they simply know more of nature to manipulate then any true magic to bend it to their will.

Magic used by the evil beings in Middle Earth is used in ways to dominate and bend things to their will. It is often used in showy ways for power and fear purposes etc.

Magic in HP's world seems to be used consistently as not only a means but an end as well. It is also prevalent throughout the books, which is fine I guess it works with the story, but I just think the emphasis becomes a bit much. And quite often Harry finds no problem with giving back the bad guys a taste of their own power.

This is the distinction I am trying to draw here. So, hopefully I cleared it up for you.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311175937' post='2271558']
Of all my experience with Harry Potter fans (which is quite extensive), I have yet to meet anyone who was interested in the occult because of the books. And I'm speaking from 5th grade until now, and I'm currently 22.

I mean, I'm sure it happens every once in a while... but I'd guess that the individual in question likely already had interests in the occult or other problems that would cause them to look into that direction.

Is the story a perfection Christian allegory? By no means. But neither is most of literature. Should we limit our libraries to books written by Christians, or better yet, Catholics alone?
[/quote]

When the books first came out, I remember a few groups wanted it banned and burned. I never really understood all the controversy. If someone doesn't like magic or fantasy or whatever, then don't read the books! To ban books and burn them is barbaric. Just don't buy them and don't read them.

And I totally agree. I know of NO ONE who has, because of Harry Potter, been interested in the occult. Some of the most devout people I know can talk about the Christian symbolism in Harry Potter. It's not perfect, like you said, but it's there.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311911372' post='2277924']


Well, I can't say anything about Wizard of Oz, since I've seen it. As far as why LOTR has primacy over Harry Potter, is on the grounds of how the magic system in Middle Earth is used as opposed to how it is used in HP.

The magic in LOTR, (used by the good side that is) is used strictly as an aid if only as a last resort, where it merely enhances and is used as a means. This is all done in subtle ways though nothing too obvious at times, since the elves, who are inherently magical deny often that they simply know more of nature to manipulate then any true magic to bend it to their will.

Magic used by the evil beings in Middle Earth is used in ways to dominate and bend things to their will. It is often used in showy ways for power and fear purposes etc.

Magic in HP's world seems to be used consistently as not only a means but an end as well. It is also prevalent throughout the books, which is fine I guess it works with the story, but I just think the emphasis becomes a bit much. And quite often Harry finds no problem with giving back the bad guys a taste of their own power.

This is the distinction I am trying to draw here. So, hopefully I cleared it up for you.
[/quote]

But see, the magic in HP is merely a backdrop for the rest of the story. Used to "enchant" a world... the magic is never the end. Its not something that can be acquired (you're either born with it or not). It's merely a tool to tell a much deeper story- a story about good and evil and the true power of love.

[havok579257]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311911372' post='2277924']


Well, I can't say anything about Wizard of Oz, since I've seen it. As far as why LOTR has primacy over Harry Potter, is on the grounds of how the magic system in Middle Earth is used as opposed to how it is used in HP.

The magic in LOTR, (used by the good side that is) is used strictly as an aid if only as a last resort, where it merely enhances and is used as a means. This is all done in subtle ways though nothing too obvious at times, since the elves, who are inherently magical deny often that they simply know more of nature to manipulate then any true magic to bend it to their will.

Magic used by the evil beings in Middle Earth is used in ways to dominate and bend things to their will. It is often used in showy ways for power and fear purposes etc.

Magic in HP's world seems to be used consistently as not only a means but an end as well. It is also prevalent throughout the books, which is fine I guess it works with the story, but I just think the emphasis becomes a bit much. And quite often Harry finds no problem with giving back the bad guys a taste of their own power.

This is the distinction I am trying to draw here. So, hopefully I cleared it up for you.
[/quote]


magic is still used in lotr though. this is what bothers me about a lot of people who bash harry potter about having magic in it. they bash harry potter for magic but have no problem making excuses for the use of magic in other movies they like. people have no problem ashing magic in movies unless its a movie they like. if its a movie they like, they can find some way to justifiy magic being used.

either condemn both harry potter and lotr and not to mention wizard of oz and aladin and all of those other movies for magic used in it, or don't. at least be consistant. if your against magic in movies, then stop supporting all shows with magic in it such as lotr.

[sixpence]

still talking about this? I dunno why HP gets picked on when there are so many other fantasy stories out there. Major themes seem to be fighting evil even when it is overwhelming, and self-sacrifice... totally un-christian...

As for magic being used by the "good" characters for less than good purposes on occasion... this makes the story more realistic... maybe you would prefer a book about saints? Even Biblical heros messed up at times... I'm sure you can think of your own examples

As for stimulating interest in the occult... evidence? It people have no developed an interest already with everything thats out there... I can't see HP pushing them over the edge..

[Sarah147]

[quote]But in the Potter series, the line is not so clear. The “good” guys practice “white magic”, while the bad guys practice the “Dark Arts”. Readers become fascinated with the magic used (explained in remarkable detail). Yet God is clear in Scripture that any practice of magic is an “abomination” to him. God doesn’t distinguish between “white” and “dark” magic since they both originate from the same source.

“There shall not be found among you anyone who …practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.”
Deut. 18:10-14


Furthermore, if one were to use the reasoning that such objectionable material can be included in fantasy literature, then “that line of reasoning would tell you that you could include in fantasy any violence, pornography, whatever you wanted, and still defend those books by that very same statement.” [11]

The problem is, witchcraft is not fantasy; it is a sinful reality in our world.

“J.K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series, has gone through an awful lot of research. She is very accurate (otherwise we would have witches all over the country and the world saying ‘this is not a true representation of our religion.’) This is a true representation of witchcraft, and the black arts, and black magic. And yet we have people that say this is merely fantasy and harmless reading for our children. Actually, what makes this more dangerous is that it is couched in fantasy language, and children’s literature, and made to be humorous, and beautifully written and extremely provocative reading. and it just opens up children to want to have the next one. This is what is so harmful.” [12]

Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged studies elements of Rowlings’s imagery and writings, including the use of the “Potter” name in Pagan religion [13], shapechanging [14], meditation [15], human sacrifice [16], feminine power, Wicca (the religion of witchcraft) [17], the tools, spells and curses used in witchcraft [18], Christian youth and their involvement [19], communicating with the spirit world, reincarnation, situational ethics in witchcraft, the lightning bolt as a power symbol, broomsticks and witches’ hats as phallic symbols, dabbling in divination and sorcery, recruitment, teaching children dark arts, Scholastic Inc.’s involvement, and more.

. . . .

“Clara Sessoms, who manages Living Water Christian Books in Marion, Ind. [says] ‘I don’t think people fully realize what they’re dealing with, and I think anyone who knows anything about spiritual warfare knows those books can open the door to spiritual bondage.’ ‘And I think it’s worse that children are the target,’ said Jessica Ruemler, a buyer for Living Water. ‘It opens the doors for young minds. You put sorcery in, what do you expect to get out?’”


[url="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/harrypotter.html"]Source[/url]

[/quote]


[quote]
From an ex-witch that converted to Christianity

[b]As a former witch, I can speak with authority when I say that I have examined the works of Rowling and that the Harry Potter books are training manuals for the occult. Untold millions of young people are being taught to think, speak, dress and act like witches by filling their heads with the contents of these books. Children are obsessed with the Harry Potter books that they have left television and video games to read these witchcraft manuals.[/b]

....

The first book of the series, entitled "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone", finds the orphan, Harry Potter, embarking into a new realm when he is taken to "Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardry." At this occult school, Harry Potter learns how to obtain and use witchcraft equipment. Harry also learns a new vocabulary, including words such as "Azkaban", "Circe", "Draco", "Erised", "Hermes", and "Slytherin"; all of which are names of real devils or demons. These are not characters of fiction! How serious is this? By reading these materials, many millions of young people are learning how to work with demon spirits. They are getting to know them by name. Vast numbers of children professing to be Christians are also filling their hearts and minds, while willingly ignorant parents look the other way.

....

What are kids saying about Harry Potter?
Here are some samples:

"I want to go to wizard school and learn magic. I'd like to learn to use a wand to cast spells." Dylan, age 10.

"If I could go to wizard school, I might be able to do spells and potions and fly a broomstick." Mara, age 12.

"It would be great to be a wizard because you could control situations and things like teachers." Jeffrey, age 11.

"I'd like to go to wizard school and learn magic and put spells on people. I'd make up an ugly spell and then it's pay-back time." Catherine, age 9.

"I feel like I'm inside Harry's world. If I went to wizard school I'd study everything: spells, counterspells, and defense against the dark arts." Carolyn, age 10.

"I liked it when the bad guys killed the unicorn and Voldemort drank its blood." Julie, age 13.

"The books are very clever. I couldn't put them down. When I was scared I made myself believe that it was supposed to be funny so I wasn't so scared." Nuray age 11.

But is it just fantasy literature like Snow White and Cinderella? In the Harry Potter video, cult expert Caryl Matrisciana points out that in the older stories, evil never prevails.

There are no absolutes in his world. What is right depends on the situation.



[url="http://www.pacinst.com/witch.htm"]Source[/url]

[/quote]


Something to think about. Maybe it didn't do much to you, but think what it is and has done to many others out there. That's enough to say it's no good.

Edited July 29, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311914216' post='2277955']

But see, the magic in HP is merely a backdrop for the rest of the story. Used to "enchant" a world... the magic is never the end. Its not something that can be acquired (you're either born with it or not). It's merely a tool to tell a much deeper story- a story about good and evil and the true power of love.
[/quote]

It's more of a focus lens. But then this is just differences of opinion in essence. Yes, I guess Rowling gives the themes of Love and good vs. evil though that in particular becomes blurred at times. And honestly, the themes are so general any story can fit those bounds.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1311921657' post='2277993']
magic is still used in lotr though. this is what bothers me about a lot of people who bash harry potter about having magic in it. they bash harry potter for magic but have no problem making excuses for the use of magic in other movies they like. people have no problem ashing magic in movies unless its a movie they like. if its a movie they like, they can find some way to justifiy magic being used.

either condemn both harry potter and lotr and not to mention wizard of oz and aladin and all of those other movies for magic used in it, or don't. at least be consistant. if your against magic in movies, then stop supporting all shows with magic in it such as lotr.
[/quote]

Well obviously you just scanned my post....

It's just my opinion, so sorry that I can't agree nor just fall into your reasoning here as well.

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1311953140' post='2278104']
still talking about this? I dunno why HP gets picked on when there are so many other fantasy stories out there. Major themes seem to be fighting evil even when it is overwhelming, and self-sacrifice... totally un-christian...

As for magic being used by the "good" characters for less than good purposes on occasion... this makes the story more realistic... maybe you would prefer a book about saints? Even Biblical heros messed up at times... I'm sure you can think of your own examples

As for stimulating interest in the occult... evidence? It people have no developed an interest already with everything thats out there... I can't see HP pushing them over the edge..
[/quote]

I'm not trying to change anyone's perspective, but just saying my part. I mean, if nothing else HP opened the doors for the new fascination with the paranormal which Stephine Meyer latched onto to bring in her Vampires and Werewolves.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/harrypotter.html

[quote]
Potter fans say that [i]this[/i] world is just make-believe and has no bearing on the [i]real[/i] world. While a few Christians don’t even like to read or see classics such as [i]Sleeping Beauty[/i], [i]Lord of the Rings[/i], or [i]Chronicles of Narnia[/i] due to the mere presence of evil, most Christians recognize the good vs. evil element as being clearly delineated. Evil is evil, and good is good, and good is promoted while evil is not.
But in the Potter series, the line is not so clear. The “good” guys practice “white magic”, while the bad guys practice the “Dark Arts”. Readers become fascinated with the [u]magic[/u] used (explained in remarkable detail). Yet [u]God[/u] is clear in [u]Scripture[/u] that [i]any[/i] practice of [u]magic[/u] is an “abomination” to him. God doesn’t distinguish between “white” and “dark” [u]magic[/u] since they both originate from the same source.
[/quote]