Which Is Christianity More Favourable To: Socialism, Libertarianism, O

[Micah]

[img]http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8890/libertarian.jpg[/img]
[font="Georgia"][b]Libertarianism[/b]: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of its citizens.[/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="2"][img]http://l.thumbs.canstockphoto.com/canstock4651811.jpg[/img][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="2"][font="Georgia"][size="2"][b]Socialism[/b]: an economic and political system based on collective or state ownership of the means of production and distribution -- although, like capitalism the system takes many and diverse forms (oxford dic.)[/size][/font]
[size="2"][font="Arial"][img]http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7249/cliow.jpg[/img][/font][/size][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="2"][size="2"] [font="Georgia"][b]Conservatism[/b]: averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values (oxford dic.). Accepting gradual and incremental change over time by due process.[/font][/size][/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana"][size="2"] [b][size="2"][font="verdana, sans-serif"][img]http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/020516/143111__gangs1_l.jpg[/img] [/font][/size][/b][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="2"][b][size="2"][font="verdana, sans-serif"]"[/font][font="Georgia"]I do say, it looks like America is a bunch of libertarians!"[/font][/size][/b][/size][/font]

[Micah]

[img]http://mises.org/images/JuanDeMariana.jpg[/img]
[font="Comic Sans MS"][size="2"][i]"For the sake of encouraging thought along lines of Christian thought, I have posted some relevant scripture.[/i][/size][/font][font="Comic Sans MS"][size="2"][i]
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[size="3"][color="#8B0000"][font="Comic Sans MS"][i]Romans 13:1: Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.[/i][/font]
[font="Comic Sans MS"][i]Acts 4: 32: And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.[/i]
[/font][i][font="Comic Sans MS"]Judges 17: 6: In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.[/font][/i]
[/color][/size][font="Comic Sans MS"][i][i][size="3"][color="#8B0000"]1 Sam 8: 6: But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD.[/color]

[/size][/i][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][font="Comic Sans MS"][size="2"][size=2][i]- Juan de Mariana" [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/scholar.gif[/img][/i][/size][/size][/font]
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Edited December 8, 2010 by Micah

[rkwright]

Oh. No.

This thread is going to merge all the biggest debates into one thread.

Sounds like a huge mess with no clear answer.

Edited December 8, 2010 by rkwright

[dominicansoul]

micah!

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1291844097' post='2191633']
Oh. No.

This thread is going to merge all the biggest debates into one thread.

Sounds like a huge mess with no clear answer.
[/quote]
that's what happens when you try to put Jesus in a political box.

[MIKolbe]

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n129/corsetti3/wargames.jpg[/img]

[Micah]

Haha noooo.. This is a forum of free thought, just tell me what you think. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img] I've been sitting here studying political history, reading the Bible, and eating christmas oranges all day. I think this is what great political thinkers must have done in the past.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/think.gif[/img]

[Micah]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1291845564' post='2191638']
that's what happens when you try to put Jesus in a political box.
[/quote]

Hey, that's not true. It's the other way around. Which one is Christianity more favourable to? We are putting politics into a Christian box.

Really guys if you don't want to participate, please don't, but this thread is for thought not debate, and certainly not bashing the topic.

[ardillacid]

A dictatorship led by me.

[Ephrem Augustine]

I initially thought socialism, but when i read your definition of conservative, i wanted to say that.
if conservative merely means keeping the status quo of legalized abortion, then i don't think so, but what we normally label liberal and conservative here has different meanings elsewhere, and libertarianism might as well be incredibly liberal to monarchy.

so point being i admit my own inability to express either three, however, as much as i would like a lessening of federalism, i don't know that that is for the sake of libertarianism.

[MithLuin]

I'll bite (because geniuses rush in where angels dare to tread.)

Libertarianism would be preferable to a very bad government - one that persecutes Christians sorely and intentionally works to undermine faith and morals. Sure, the tree of the Church is watered by the blood of the martyrs, so it's not that [i]no[/i] good can come from persecution, but....who wants to move to Zimbabwe right now? And how many Christians are there left in Czechoslovakia? On the other hand...who wants to live in Somalia? A Christian or neutral government is preferable to no government Biblically-speaking. The time of the judges, when 'everyone did as he thought best' was a very lawless time where people were murdered in the streets without consequence. Obviously, those who advocate for a more Libertarian society don't mean that they want that level of lawlessness. It's more to be free of busy-bodies and unnecessary meddling. Liberty, as understood in Christian theology, is the freedom to do the right thing, [i]not[/i] the freedom to do whatever you want. So, a Libertarianism that was able to pursue that variety of freedom would be decently compatible with Christianity. I can't think of any practical examples (modern or historical) on the scale of a nation, but perhaps this has been tried in smaller communities? Maybe the Wild West or some other frontier had a lack of government that did not devolve into lawlessness?

Socialism, as it has been tried, is not terribly Christian, but that's because Soviet Russia (and Communist China) are very actively anti-Christian (not even just anti-Church). Socialism as practiced in Western Europe is also very much secular, being nearly completely cut off from its Christian roots. So..certainly such a system [i]can[/i] be Christian - the early Christians and the Shaker villages seem to have been set up that way - but there's a lot of negative baggage associated with the system as it tends to be practiced at the national level in the modern world. I think a Christian approach should begin (or even focus) on the concept of Distributism rather than Communism. (I realize that [url=http://www.chesterton.org/gkc/Distributist/rottenapple.html]Distributism[/url] focuses rather strongly on the concept of private property, so it's not really like socialism...but it's not really like capitalism, either.)

As for Conservatism...preserving what is good of Tradition is one of the key roles of the Church in salvation history. So, there is certainly an affinity there. But again, what is preserved must be authentically good, and not kept simply because it's the way things have always been done. Change can be for the better....or not. Very few traditions are as caustic as Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery', but even so, some old things really do need to go.



I suppose I am saying, [b]Micah[/b], that a Christian person could pursue any of these philosophies in a Christian way, adapting the 'traditional' understanding as necessary. And that, as they stand, none of them are strictly Christian.

God bless, peace out, pax et bonum, and Let the Fire Fall


Edit: Haha, so, turn out the philter doesn't like the saying I quoted at the beginning. Now I look even [i]more[/i] self-important! Phatmass isn't always good for my humility.....

Edited December 8, 2010 by MithLuin

[Micah]

EDIT: Sorry Mith, this response was for Ephrem! You obviously type faster than me haha. Im going to eat dinner, study a bit, then read your post!


Ya by conservative I don't mean the Canadian or US conservative parties, more like the classical Edmund Burke sense. It's kind of based on two ideas, that old political and religious institutions should be maintained, because they've lasted for good reason (Chesterton had the same idea), and that we should be able to move as a society, but in small increments so as to prevent anything really radical happening.

I think that America's founding fathers were very much libertarians, but it was only to accomplish self-governance as a free republic. The constitution can go both ways. Some people, ie. conservative federalist types that still missed good old Britain, saw the constitution as a way to replicate old country central government. Other Americans saw it as a way to enshrine libertarian principles, via the bill of rights. And hence there is this perpetual debate over it. Is America better off as Thomas Jefferson's agrarian republic, where everyone owns land, and the state is the predominant form of government. Or is America better off as Alexander Hamilton's commercial enterprise, where central government rules and integrates all of the regions of the United States. In the long run, I think federal, conservative power is winning. Libertarianism took a huge hit with the civil war, and now it's come under attack again with Arizona's attempt to exercise some jurisdiction over immigration.

I've seen some interesting biblical support for libertarianism: Joseph rebelling against Herod, John the Baptist condemning Herod, Samuel condemning Kingship, Jesus equating taxation to evil. And the Catholic scholar above, Mariana, almost argued for the same Lockean style social contract that the American fathers developed.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Micah

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

aren't we awaiting the return of our Lord....so wouldn't that be awaiting a Divine Monarchy?

That being said, Christianity seems more about a wide range of issues that transcend political ideologies....though personally I am a dual federalist. Subsidiarity FTW!

[sixpence]

1. I think Christmas oranges are the best system mentioned

2. Take this quiz and see how close you fall Pope Ben16!

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[img]http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/internationalchart.gif[/img]

[Micah]

Response to Mith:

I think that was a well thought out response! But I do believe there is a disconnect between the theological ideal of liberty – where freedom is only expressed to do good – and the practical application, in whichevil will, no doubt, occur alongside good. Compare that to an authoritarian,conservative government which checks criminality while maintaining Christian freedom (ie. Checks evil, permits good).

I think you may be taking the sneaky way out by vouching for distributism, because that is most certainly not part of the Poll. I,however, think it's a great idea. Quasi-capitalism sort of, but more based on economic theories than political. It doesn't answer who, what, or how uniformcontrol of the means of production would be enforced.

Agreed, Christian society could and does exist in all political mediums, but if you had HAD to choose one, which would it be. I'm all for balance, but they can't all be equally conducive to Christian society. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]

Edited December 9, 2010 by Micah