Pope Contradicts

[dairygirl4u2c]

http://news.scotsman.com/news/Condoms-lesser-evil-than-Aids.6637335.jp
[quote]

Condoms lesser evil than Aids, says Pope

24 November 2010
By DAVID GUNN
THE Pope believes using a condom and avoiding pregnancy is a "lesser evil" than passing on HIV through unprotected sex, the Vatican said yesterday.

The Roman Catholic Church moved to clarify this seismic shift in papal teaching as it further explained the Pope's comments on contraception.

The Vatican has long been criticised for its patent opposition to condom use, particularly in Africa, where AIDS is rampant.

But the latest interpretation of his comments about condoms and HIV means the Church now believes its long-held, anti-birth-control stance against condoms does not justify putting someone's life at risk.

"This is a game-changer," said the Rev Jim Martin, a Jesuit editor and writer.

The Pope wrote in a book that condom use by people such as male prostitutes was a lesser evil, since it indicated they were moving towards a more moral and responsible sexuality by aiming to protect their partner from a deadly infection.

His comments implied that he was referring primarily to homosexual sex, when condoms are not being used as a form of contraception.

Questions arose immediately about his intent, because the Italian translation of the book used the feminine for prostitute, whereas the original German used the masculine.

[b]Vatican spokesman, the Rev Federico Lombardi, said he asked the Pope whether he intended his comments to apply only to male prostitutes. He replied that it really did not matter, that the important thing was the person in question took into consideration the life of the other.[/b]

"I personally asked the Pope if there was a serious, important problem in the choice of the masculine over the feminine," Mr Lombardi said. "He told me no. The problem is this… it's the first step of taking responsibility, of taking into consideration the risk of the life of another with whom you have a relationship.

"This is if you're a man, a woman, or a transsexual. We're at the same point. The point is it's a first step of taking responsibility, of avoiding passing a grave risk on to another".

The clarification is significant.The UNAids programme estimates 22.4 million people in Africa are infected with HIV, and that 54 per cent - or 12.1 million - are women.

Heterosexual transmission of HIV and multiple, heterosexual partners are believed to be a major cause of the high infection rates in Africa.

The Pope angered the United Nations, European governments and Aids activists when, en route to Africa in 2009, he told reporters the Aids problem couldn't be resolved by distributing condoms.[/quote]



"On the contrary, it increases the problem," he said.

In Africa, Aids activists, clerics and ordinary Africans alike applauded the Pope's revised comments.

"I say hurrah for Pope Benedict," said Linda-Gail Bekker, chief executive of South AfricDesmond Tutu HIV Foundation. She said his statement might prompt many people to "adopt a simple lifestyle strategy to protect themselves".

In Sierra Leone, the director of the National Aids Secretariat predicted condom use would now increase, lowering the number of new infections.

"Once the Pope has made a pronouncement, his priests will be at the forefront in advocating for their perceived use of condoms," said Dr Brima Kargbo.


r Lombardi said the Pope knew full well that his new comments would provoke debate and discussion.

Conservative Catholics have been trying to minimise the scope of what he said since the weekend. Mr Lombardi praised the Pope for his "courage" in confronting the problem.

"He did it because he believed that it was a serious, important question in the world of today," Mr Lombardi said, adding that the Pope wanted to give his perspective on the need for a greater humanised, responsible sexuality.

In the book, the Pope was not justifying or condoning gay sex or heterosexual sex outside of a marriage. He also reaffirms the Vatican's opposition to homosexual acts and artificial contraception and reaffirms the inviolability of marriage between man and woman.

But by broadening the condom comments to apply also to women, the Pope is saying that condom use is a lesser evil than passing HIV on to a partner even when pregnancy is possible.

"By acknowledging that condoms help prevent the spread of HIV between people in sexual relationships, the Pope has completely changed the Catholic discussion on condoms," Mr Martin said.

"We're not just talking about an encounter between two men, which has little to do with procreation. We're now introducing relationships that could lead to childbirth."

While the "lesser evil" concept has long been a tenet of moral theology, the Pope's book, Light of the World - a series of interviews with a German journalist -marked the first time a pope had ever publicly applied the theory to condom use as a way to fight HIV transmission.

Edited November 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

This would be easier if you learned Catholic moral theology.

[dairygirl4u2c]

what about fornication? if you're going to have sex before marriage, and sleep around... isn't it better to use a condom? i know that question has been asked here before, and everyone always ignores it or says no. 'you're just making the problems worse'. maybe there were one or two who said 'well if you're going to sin anyway...'.
it'd seem it's the case that you need to prevent STDs... could you also say it's applicable to prevent pregnancy in an out of wedlock marriage? maybe not for the out of wedlock stuff, but for the STD stuff, the lack of pregnancy is the bi product.


i can't recall how many catholics here have said that ya couldnt use condoms for HIV prevention- end of discussion. even if it's a lesser evil for other sins.

there's been so many times a 'lesser evil' argument is just ignored by catholics, but now it coudln't be. eg, 'so if i'm going to rob someone, should i rob a rich man or a poor man?' the proper answer seems to be the rich man. even if it's unjustifiable, its the lesser of two evils. so now there's an answer to the question.


so the pope said ya can't use condoms before to prevent AIDS. didn't he ever address the issue of 'lesser of two evils'? it seems like he has.

Edited November 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

what about fornication? if you're going to have sex before marriage, and sleep around... isn't it better to use a condom? i know that question has been asked here before, and everyone always ignores it or says no. 'you're just making the problems worse'. maybe there were one or two who said 'well if you're going to sin anyway...'.
it'd seem it's the case that you need to prevent STDs... could you also say it's applicable to prevent pregnancy in an out of wedlock marriage? maybe not for the out of wedlock stuff, but for the STD stuff, the lack of pregnancy is the bi product.

Edited November 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

It seems like you read news articles instead of full statements.

Get on the school bus.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, in the same interview']
She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution[/quote]

The End.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Gregorius

[thessalonian]

It seems the Pope was simply separating out the issue of protecting another life by available means ignoring the other sin involved in the situation. No contradiction there. Separate from the fornication it is noble to defend another's life. Cover your mouth when you sneeze. Why? well because you might pass the flu to an elderly person. I highly doubt he is saying "but if your gonna do it, put a condom on it". In fact I know he is not.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i can see and would tend to agree there's no contradiction per 'it's the lesser of two evils' and 'just because they have HIV doesn't mean you can use contraceptives'
i mostly wonder what the implications are for other theories like sex before marriage etc. and one does have to wonder if the 'no contraception at all period' statements before are truly so broad as to say the current teaching is a contradiction. not enough to support that, but one should wonder.

also, 'I highly doubt he is saying "but if your gonna do it, put a condom on it". In fact I know he is not. ' isn't this exactly what he's saying? at least as far as HIV goes. 'but if you're going to, it's the lesser of two evils... put a condom on it'? or are you referring to sex in general or?
i'm prob just misundertanding you

Edited November 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[CatherineM]

I see it as being similar to women who use the pill, not for contraception, but for medical reasons.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1290568537' post='2188968']
i can see and would tend to agree there's no contradiction per 'it's the lesser of two evils' and 'just because they have HIV doesn't mean you can use contraceptives'
i mostly wonder what the implications are for other theories like sex before marriage etc. and one does have to wonder if the 'no contraception at all period' statements before are truly so broad as to say the current teaching is a contradiction. not enough to support that, but one should wonder.

also, 'I highly doubt he is saying "but if your gonna do it, put a condom on it". In fact I know he is not. ' isn't this exactly what he's saying? at least as far as HIV goes. 'but if you're going to, it's the lesser of two evils... put a condom on it'? or are you referring to sex in general or?
i'm prob just misundertanding you
[/quote]


I don't believe it was the lesser of two evils argument. I think it was a speculation on the heart and mind of the individual making such decisions, perhaps struggling with a sex addition that got him aides in the first place.

Edited November 24, 2010 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Maybe you will believe the pope?

"In my remarks I was not making a general statement about the condom issue, but merely said, and this is what caused such great offense, that we cannot solve the problem by distributing condoms. [EMPHASIS ADDED] "

[1catholic]

If someone gets angry at someone and decides that murder is going too far, so they wreck their car instead, they are on the road to realizing human dignity but are still doing something wrong...same thing

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1290624566' post='2189059']
Maybe you will believe the pope?

"In my remarks I was not making a general statement about the condom issue, but merely said, and this is what caused such great offense, that we cannot solve the problem by distributing condoms. [EMPHASIS ADDED] "
[/quote]

Enough said

[MithLuin]

[b]dairy girl[/b], the pope was discussing the use of condoms by prostitutes. People who prostitute themselves or make use of a prostitute's services are not actually following Catholic moral teaching regarding human sexuality (surprise, surprise).

The Church says 'don't fornicate.' If you want to run out and have premarital sex, I don't see how [i]not[/i] using a condom makes your behavior moral in any way. In other words, this isn't a 'lesser evil' issue at all. It's all sinful. But if you care even a glimmer about the other person, then maybe there's hope for you yet.