Shame Of The Irish

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1291578767' post='2191066']
I think you're being overly dogmatic.

Refusing to condemn/punish the accused does not translate to condemning the accuser.

American justice operates that way all the time. It is not enough to "believe" that the accused is guilty. What is required is that their guilt be proved beyond any reasonable doubt. Many juries release accused people even though they believe the accused is scum and probably is guilty. "Probably" is not good enough to condemn someone for a crime as damning as sexual abuse.

My point, which Semper never addressed, was that Notre Dame does not need to punish the football player over allegations of rape. They can and should punish him for what he has admitted: illicit sex with a girl two weeks into her freshman year.

Semper cannot accept that Notre Dame should punish the football player for this, because in Semper's worldview pre-marital sex is okey dokey.
If that is all that happened, then according to Semper the football player did nothing wrong.

In order to make the football player responsible for his role in this tragedy, Semper needs for him to be punished for suspected rape. Otherwise he is going to walk away scott free from something that is obviously partly his responsibility (whether he raped the girl or not)

What we are missing in this discussion is: Notre Dame is a Catholic school. Pre-marital sex is illicit in the Catholic tradition. A football player on the Catholic school's football team had illicit, pre-marital sex with a freshman girl, who then committed suicide. What should a Catholic school do with that football player. What do high schools do when an athlete violates the honor code? Hmmm?
[/quote]

LOL WUT

[MIKolbe]

here.... this might help...

http://www.starfall.com/

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1291660630' post='2191252']
here.... this might help...

[url="http://www.starfall.com/"]http://www.starfall.com/[/url]
[/quote]

>Be completely and utterly wrong about something
>Make ad hom attacks

Wow and you're a mod to? You'd fit in great at Notre Dame.

[MIKolbe]

[4588686]

hm.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Hasan

[4588686]

Both sides have made interesting points. Unfortunately the conversation seems on the verge of running out of steam.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Hasan

[Semper Catholic]

>Make thread about girl committing suicide after her rape was covered up by University.
>Her rapist is defended
>Thread eventually gets hijacked and guidos are posted.

I'll be praying for you Mkolbe. that you find peace.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291669120' post='2191280']
>Thread eventually gets hijacked and guidos are posted.
[/quote]
is that a racial slur?

[4588686]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291669120' post='2191280']
>Make thread about girl committing suicide after her rape was covered up by University.
>Her rapist is defended
>Thread eventually gets hijacked and guidos are posted.

I'll be praying for you Mkolbe. that you find peace.
[/quote]

Her death is not evidence that a rape took place. She was troubled and the Note Dame community certainly failed to get her the help she needed in general before it was too late. The possible rape may have been the catalyst that pushed her over the edge. It is also possible that the individual genuinely felt that she had been assaulted after the fact but the encounter would have appeared consensual to any impartial third party. She seems to have been mentally unstable. That mental instability can be used to argue for or against her allegations.

A University shouldn't be able to punish on mere allegation. Both students have rights. I don't think the University's fault was in not punishing the student but rather in failing to pursue to allegations sufficiently to determine if any penalty was warranted. It seems that the University did not report the rape allegations. I don't know the law but that strikes me as a clear dereliction of duty on the part of the University.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291669120' post='2191280']
>Make thread about girl committing suicide after her rape was covered up by University.
>Her rapist is defended
>Thread eventually gets hijacked and guidos are posted.

I'll be praying for you Mkolbe. that you find peace.
[/quote]


her rapist was never defended. what was defended is the notion of innocent until proven guilty. something you obvious don't understand. cause according to you its guilty until proven innocent.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1291671755' post='2191294']
her rapist was never defended. what was defended is the notion of innocent until proven guilty. something you obvious don't understand. cause according to you its guilty until proven innocent.
[/quote]

The notion of innocent until proven guilty is incorrect. It's not guilty until proven guilty. The justice system does not find people "innocent."

This isn't the Duke Lacrosse case, where there was zero evidence involved. There was a stack a mile high of evidence against this one individual. Just because he was never tried does not mean he is innocent.

@Mklobe

As someone who is actually Italian you are ridiculous and grasping at straws. Anytime you want to pull up a seat at the big boy table and bring something thoughtful to the discussion go ahead. I've private messaged dust about your conduct and hopefully he will take appropriate action.

[Lilllabettt]

Semper believes in guilty until proven innocent ...

I know why! He is a secret Frenchman!!! (that is how they roll over there)

[havok579257]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291675712' post='2191313']
The notion of innocent until proven guilty is incorrect. It's not guilty until proven guilty. The justice system does not find people "innocent."

This isn't the Duke Lacrosse case, where there was zero evidence involved. There was a stack a mile high of evidence against this one individual. Just because he was never tried does not mean he is innocent.

@Mklobe

As someone who is actually Italian you are ridiculous and grasping at straws. Anytime you want to pull up a seat at the big boy table and bring something thoughtful to the discussion go ahead. I've private messaged dust about your conduct and hopefully he will take appropriate action.
[/quote]


you said the player should be punished for the sheer allegations. just the fact that a women said she was raped, before any investigation was done, you were willing to punish the young man. that is the problem with society today. as soon as the media reports an allegation, that person is already guilty in the public eye and should be punished before any investigation or trail.

[Semper Catholic]

I will pray for Lizzy Seeburg, hopefully she finds more compassion with Jesus then she did from those fellow Catholics who were supposed to be looking out for her well being. TOUCHDOWN JESUS!

[organwerke]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1291578767' post='2191066']
I think you're being overly dogmatic.
[/quote]

I think that "innocent until proven guilty" is overly dogmatic too.
There are many cases in fact in which there are serious clues against one or more persons.
I agree that the final judgement comes only after the end of a trial or investigation, but often happens that precautions are taken against a person that is under an investigation.
And I think that is very clear that this case has many obscure aspects.
First of all I agree that in a Catholic University it is not good that students have sex relations.
If you also add that the very young girl stated that she was raped, and, after few days, committed suicide, how people can say that all is normal about this?
I really can't understand.

You may also be considered "not guilty" by a court, but, in my opinion, moral responsibilities remain.
A person who committs suicide is not killed by someone else, so it is easy (and this happens almost always) that no one is responsible for this.
But, considering the whole fact, I think that there has been lacks from many parts towards this poor girl.

A student (a catholic student) can't have sex with a young woman and then say: sorry, it was a mistake, pretend that we've never known each other.
Even if he didn't rape her (and we don't know if he didn't) what did he do with girl? What did the University when aknowledge the fact?

Nothing.

I don't think that it is all ok with this.
Besides all the dogmas such as "innocent until proven guilty" there is only a fact that is absolutely sure: that the only persons who has personally paid the "guilt" of that fact is the poor woman that now is no longer alive.