Shame Of The Irish

[Ed Normile]

This brings up many questions, did this woman invite the male to her room? It would seem as if he forced his way into her room the police would have been forced to arrest him. Perhaps that is why we are not supposed to place ourselves in the near occasion of sin. No college could protect a male from an action like forcibly breaking into her dorm and raping her. If she did invite him into the room then the lines would be further blurred as far as the police proper reaction to the incident. Incidently the woman is always believed over the male, if at any point if she said no, even if she initiated the sex and was actively engaged in it, he would have to stop or it would be rape thats the law folks. It would seem that if they had any case or reason to believe the charge he would have been arrested. This is why Roethlisberger has been castrated by the media and has paid monies to squash the allegations while he maintains his innocence, being a public figure he was tried and convicted in the media while the police had no evidence to press charges on him. I would assume if there were a thread of evidence the family who has paid the prosecution to investigate the charges, probably looking for a fat paycheck, would have made this evidence public. The fact that the woman was suffering from depression does not help her crediblity either as a witness, I am sure investigators probably have evidence that she has tried suicide previously, take into consideration too that many anti depressive drugs have a side effect of suicidal tendencies, just watch the ads on the TV, the disclaimers of side effects are horrifying. All in all this is a sad affair and my prayers go out to all who are involved.

ed

[Semper Catholic]

Some people in this thread should seriously take some time to think about their world views

Prosecutor Speaks Out On Notre Dame Rape Coverup

Read more: [url="http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucmav5E"]http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucmav5E[/url]


[quote] Still, you faced down your fears and took action. You told your friends and wrote down what happened that very night. You went to campus police the next day. Despite the fear of being portrayed as God-knows-what and the fury that might rain down on you for reporting against a football player, you reported anyway. Despite the discomfort of an invasive physical examination, you endured one. Despite the fear and exhaustion that comes with entering counseling in order to fully recover from such an attack, you did that, too. You did everything that could possibly have been asked of you.

That's why I'm trying to understand why Notre Dame, the world-class, excellent institution where you were attacked, has reacted the way it has. I don't know why campus police [url="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/notre-dame-case-forwarded-20101122,0,3665454.story"]didn't[/url] turn over a case file to the St. Joseph's County prosecutor's office until just several days ago- after your case became national news and your hometown paper began demanding answers. Nor do I understand what's behind the school's [url="http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-11-21/news/ct-met-notre-dame-story-20101121_1_sexual-attack-campus-police-sexual-assault"]refusal[/url] to release police records regarding what they know about what happened to you- even to your parents.

Finally, and most disturbingly, I don't know why the man you reported against has played an entire season of football. While it's true that he is and should be considered innocent until proven otherwise, his privilege to play football isn't in any way related to his legal rights as a citizen. The fact is, you reported swiftly and completely a serious crime to the proper authorities that control his ability to play, and you followed through with evidence collection, counseling and cooperation. Yet still they have chosen to refuse to even acknowledge your complaint, let alone bar him from playing at least until the investigation is completed. This despite your death. Coach Kelly won't state whether he's even spoken to the player you identified. He's quick to [url="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-folo-1122-20101121,0,4282674.story"]remind[/url] us that he stresses respect for women in his program, is a father himself, and wants "the right kind of guys" on his team. Well, the player hasn't been benched in three months; from this we can fairly deduce that Coach Kelly supports him as someone who is "the right kind of guy" and worthy of wearing the uniform. If that's so, why won't he give his reasons?

The sad fact is there's an ocean of ignorance out there regarding what happened to you, Lizzy. Many who are watching the case unfold are [url="http://www.irishcentral.com/story/sport/sean_oshea/a-tragic-rush-in-lizzy-seeberg-case-to-accuse-notre-dame-footballer-of-rape-is-all-wrong-110894589.html"]repeating[/url] over and over again the meaningless mantra that that we must all "Remember Duke Lacrosse." It's because many believe, with nothing to back it up, that women regularly accuse men falsely of sexual assault, and especially athletes. They're happy to extrapolate one example of a false accusation to every possible situation, despite the mountain of evidence suggesting that women just like you endure what you endured day in and day out, usually in numbed silence.

Even worse, some just don't think that sexual assault is nearly as important as college athletics, and they'll sacrifice the vindication of a budding, brilliant life like yours in a flurry of nonsense that will trivialize your suffering and ruthlessly twist reality. They'll call it regret. They'll call it a misunderstanding. They'll call it anything but what it is, and they'll ensconce and defend the man who did it so he can simply do it again. So even the prompt, thorough complaint you made and the investigation you participated in until your death wasn't enough to bench a football player for a few games until some evidence came to light, one way or another.



Read more: [url="http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucR38n4"]http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucR38n4[/url][/quote]

[havok579257]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291252419' post='2190274']
Some people in this thread should seriously take some time to think about their world views

Prosecutor Speaks Out On Notre Dame Rape Coverup

Read more: [url="http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucmav5E"]http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/11/a-letter-from-a-prosecutor-to-a-young-woman/#ixzz16ucmav5E[/url]
[/quote]


so you believe an allegation should keep someone from playing college football? so whats to stop a person from paying off a woman or women from amking false allegations just so a player or players can be suspended before the big national game?

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1291265457' post='2190294']
so you believe an allegation should keep someone from playing college football? so whats to stop a person from paying off a woman or women from amking false allegations just so a player or players can be suspended before the big national game?
[/quote]

A) It would be investigated thoroughly. This young lady did everything right, and their were mountains of evidence. I could excuse a university for playing a player for one or two games, but this player played the entire season while this investigation was on going without any repurcussion and mountains of evidence against him.

B) As a Catholic University Notre Dame should hold itself to a higher moral standard then other "party schools" or any other university.

It's pretty clear in this case that ND did everything in their power to stall, dirsupt, and put the breaks on any criminal investigation against one of their football players. Despicable actions and Brian Kelly's contract needs to be terminated regardless of how many years are left on it, and how much money they are already paying Charlie Weis.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291281778' post='2190324']
A) It would be investigated thoroughly. This young lady did everything right, and their were mountains of evidence. I could excuse a university for playing a player for one or two games, but this player played the entire season while this investigation was on going without any repurcussion and mountains of evidence against him.

B) As a Catholic University Notre Dame should hold itself to a higher moral standard then other "party schools" or any other university.

It's pretty clear in this case that ND did everything in their power to stall, dirsupt, and put the breaks on any criminal investigation against one of their football players. Despicable actions and Brian Kelly's contract needs to be terminated regardless of how many years are left on it, and how much money they are already paying Charlie Weis.
[/quote]


so your changing your stance now? before you said any allegations and somoene should be suspended from football until an investigation is complete.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1291305725' post='2190366']
so your changing your stance now? before you said any allegations and somoene should be suspended from football until an investigation is complete.
[/quote]

It would be preferable that the student athlete be withheld from participating as soon as possible.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291312813' post='2190392']
It would be preferable that the student athlete be withheld from participating as soon as possible.
[/quote]


withheld because of allegations or withheld because of what the investigation turns up?

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291252419' post='2190274']
Some people in this thread should seriously take some time to think about their world views
[/quote]

I know. It makes me sad . Rape is not taken seriously enough by society. "They're happy to extrapolate one example of a false accusation to every possible situation, despite the mountain of evidence suggesting that women just like you endure what you endured day in and day out, usually in numbed silence," pretty much sums up the unfortunate truth. It's not so much for me the question of his "innocence," but people's attitudes towards this case are just a disheartening reminder of the grossly inaccurate stereotyping and stigma that surrounds rape victims. Very sad indeed.

[mcts]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291432017' post='2190869']
I know. It makes me sad . Rape is not taken seriously enough by society. "They're happy to extrapolate one example of a false accusation to every possible situation, despite the mountain of evidence suggesting that women just like you endure what you endured day in and day out, usually in numbed silence," pretty much sums up the unfortunate truth. It's not so much for me the question of his "innocence," but people's attitudes towards this case are just a disheartening reminder of the grossly inaccurate stereotyping and stigma that surrounds rape victims. Very sad indeed.
[/quote]

I understand that that's an issue, and I completely feel a lot of compassion for these girls. I do understand, though, that there is a VERY large number of people who file false claims. In this situation, there weren't even any charges filed. I don't know whether he did it or not, but I do know that in the United States, we maintain our innocence until proven guilty. This person has not been proven guilty. Unfortunately, at this point it's a major he-said-she-said situation, and she, unfortunately, committed suicide, so we will probably never know.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='mcts' timestamp='1291492358' post='2190942']
I do understand, though, that there is a VERY large number of people who file false claims
[/quote]

For all crimes, or for sexual assault specifically? If it's the latter, that's a gross misconception.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='mcts' timestamp='1291492358' post='2190942']
I understand that that's an issue, and I completely feel a lot of compassion for these girls. I do understand, though, that there is a VERY large number of people who file false claims. In this situation, there weren't even any charges filed. I don't know whether he did it or not, but I do know that in the United States, we maintain our innocence until proven guilty. This person has not been proven guilty. Unfortunately, at this point it's a major he-said-she-said situation, and she, unfortunately, committed suicide, so we will probably never know.
[/quote]

There's a reason juries don't find the defendant "innocent" only "not guilty"

Innocent until proven guilty is a falsehood just like when people say America is a democracy.

"Not guilty" until proven guilty.

As has come to light, there was obviously mounds of evidence against the perpetrator, the young lady in question did everything she could to have her attacker arrested, but the University itself and the police involved put the brakes on.

Oh and last weekend Notre Dame became bowl eligible, so I guess it was worth it Mr. Kelly?

[organwerke]

[quote name='mcts' timestamp='1291492358' post='2190942']
I do understand, though, that there is a VERY large number of people who file false claims. In this situation, there weren't even any charges filed. I don't know whether he did it or not, but I do know that in the United States, we maintain our innocence until proven guilty. [/quote]

Here returns the "circle point": the statement the "he is innocent until proven guilty" implies that "she is guilty -of lying- until proven innocent -of being sincere".
To make false accusations is a crime too.
So at the same moment you defend the "possible innocence" of the "alleged raper", you are not applying the "innocent until guilty" to the "alleged victim".

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1291555468' post='2191025']
Here returns the "circle point": the statement the "he is innocent until proven guilty" implies that "she is guilty -of lying- until proven innocent -of being sincere".
To make false accusations is a crime too.
So at the same moment you defend the "possible innocence" of the "alleged raper", you are not applying the "innocent until guilty" to the "alleged victim".
[/quote]

Excellent point

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1291555468' post='2191025']
Here returns the "circle point": the statement the "he is innocent until proven guilty" implies that "she is guilty -of lying- until proven innocent -of being sincere".
To make false accusations is a crime too.
So at the same moment you defend the "possible innocence" of the "alleged raper", you are not applying the "innocent until guilty" to the "alleged victim".
[/quote]


I think you're being overly dogmatic.

Refusing to condemn/punish the accused does not translate to condemning the accuser.

American justice operates that way all the time. It is not enough to "believe" that the accused is guilty. What is required is that their guilt be proved beyond any reasonable doubt. Many juries release accused people even though they believe the accused is scum and probably is guilty. "Probably" is not good enough to condemn someone for a crime as damning as sexual abuse.

My point, which Semper never addressed, was that Notre Dame does not need to punish the football player over allegations of rape. They can and should punish him for what he has admitted: illicit sex with a girl two weeks into her freshman year.

Semper cannot accept that Notre Dame should punish the football player for this, because in Semper's worldview pre-marital sex is okey dokey.
If that is all that happened, then according to Semper the football player did nothing wrong.

In order to make the football player responsible for his role in this tragedy, Semper needs for him to be punished for suspected rape. Otherwise he is going to walk away scott free from something that is obviously partly his responsibility (whether he raped the girl or not)

What we are missing in this discussion is: Notre Dame is a Catholic school. Pre-marital sex is illicit in the Catholic tradition. A football player on the Catholic school's football team had illicit, pre-marital sex with a freshman girl, who then committed suicide. What should a Catholic school do with that football player. What do high schools do when an athlete violates the honor code? Hmmm?

[mcts]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291500874' post='2190957']
For all crimes, or for sexual assault specifically? If it's the latter, that's a gross misconception.
[/quote]

The former more than the latter, but the latter does happen.


[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1291544918' post='2191015']
There's a reason juries don't find the defendant "innocent" only "not guilty"

Innocent until proven guilty is a falsehood just like when people say America is a democracy.

"Not guilty" until proven guilty.

As has come to light, there was obviously mounds of evidence against the perpetrator, the young lady in question did everything she could to have her attacker arrested, but the University itself and the police involved put the brakes on.

Oh and last weekend Notre Dame became bowl eligible, so I guess it was worth it Mr. Kelly?
[/quote]

Whatever the case, he has not, and from what I understand, he cannot be proven guilty now. If he was even put to trial, I have no doubt in my mind that he would not be playing. However, if he was to not play, then it would be an indefinite amount of time, since there can't be any trial or anything to wait for the results of, only wait for the situation to blow over, possibly losing his scholarship, at which point there's a good chance that he wouldn't be able to go to the school anymore. If she did, in fact, lie, which is not something that's unheard of, especially in cases of religious girls who go away to college and make a mistake, then his life would be pretty close to ruined for no reason. Keep in mind, I have no idea whether she was lying or not and am not speculating on the matter, I just know that it can't be proven either way.

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1291555468' post='2191025']
Here returns the "circle point": the statement the "he is innocent until proven guilty" implies that "she is guilty -of lying- until proven innocent -of being sincere".
To make false accusations is a crime too.
So at the same moment you defend the "possible innocence" of the "alleged raper", you are not applying the "innocent until guilty" to the "alleged victim".
[/quote]

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that it cannot be proven either way, and since she is now deceased, there is no way to prove his guilt, especially since no charges were filed before her death. I wish this was not the case, but it unfortuantely is.