Shame Of The Irish

[Semper Catholic]

Attack or not, this player should not have been playing football well under a police investigation. Notre Dame, which is arguably the most recognizable symbol of Catholicism in America, has dropped the ball continuously now regarding issues of their crown jewel Football Program.

I would certainly there would be more outrage about this. Apparently I am mistaken, and disappointed as well.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1290458288' post='2188627']
If she was just starting at university, her psychiatrist clearly thought her well enough to handle the stresses of college (both academic and social stresses). A significant trauma on top of clinical depression would be enough to send a person over the edge. Especially when she realized that her attacker would not be charged.
[/quote]

You need ultimate proof of an attack though. It is a common thing for women to call it an "attack" after engaging in sexual activity with random men. There are multiple cases where this happens. Remember the other side of the story. Don't blindly think it was an attack. Recognize that it might not have been.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Hinter dem Horizont

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1290458406' post='2188628']
I mean read what I wrote.

ah. nevermind.
[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290458543' post='2188630']
You need ultimate proof of an attack though. It is a common thing for women to call it an "attack" after engaging in sexual activity with random men. There are multiple cases where this happens. Remember the other side of the story. Don't blindly think it was an attack. Recognize that it might not have been.
[/quote]

This post is one of many examples of why many women do not report a sexual assault.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290458543' post='2188630']
You need ultimate proof of an attack though. It is a common thing for women to call it an "attack" after engaging in sexual activity with random men. There are multiple cases where this happens.
[/quote]

There wouldn't be a conviction either way, possibly a plea deal. Your tone is certainly coming across like you believe she made the whole thing up however.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290458747' post='2188633']
There wouldn't be a conviction either way, possibly a plea deal. Your tone is certainly coming across like you believe she made the whole thing up however.
[/quote]

You're correct. She might be telling the truth. But she might be lying. I think this way because of the fact that there have been cases exactly like this one where the girl later confesses that they were indeed lying.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290458747' post='2188633']
There wouldn't be a conviction either way, possibly a plea deal. Your tone is certainly coming across like you believe she made the whole thing up however.
[/quote]


It really doesn't matter. That is the point I am trying to make. Badly, apparently.
Remember the Duke Lacrosse players? That girl accused them, and turns out they were innocent - of rape.
But what they were not innocent of was being Class A Despicable Human Beings.

The football player here may or may not have committed the assault.
What is certain is he was a Despicable Human Being taking advantage of a freshman girl.
The fact that he violated Catholic sexual ethics should be enough to get him a censure at a Catholic school.
My point is that you, Semper, can't condemn him for something that is proven, but you want to condemn him for something that isn't.

Incidentally. Freshmen commit suicide all the time. My freshman year there were a handful of jumpers the first semester. They were copying each other, here and at NYU. A real mess on the sidewalk outside my dorm. I got tired of seeing the coroner's truck. It is a very fragile time of life for everyone, especially someone who is already depressed. Add mistreatment by a jock (please note again that it is besides the point whether he assaulted her or not) and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1290460729' post='2188637']

Remember the Duke Lacrosse players? That girl accused them, and turns out they were innocent - of rape.


Incidentally. Freshmen commit suicide all the time. My freshman year there were a handful of jumpers the first semester. They were copying each other, here and at NYU. A real mess on the sidewalk outside my dorm. I got tired of seeing the coroner's truck. It is a very fragile time of life for everyone, especially someone who is already depressed. Add mistreatment by a jock (please note again that it is besides the point whether he assaulted her or not) and you have a recipe for disaster.
[/quote]

My points exactly!

[rachael]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290437090' post='2188571']
Gee, whatever would stop the media?
[/quote]
much the same

[Winchester]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290458509' post='2188629']
Attack or not, this player should not have been playing football well under a police investigation.
[/quote]
So innocent people shouldn't be allowed to play football while under investigation.

I believe in executing rapists, but to say we assume guilt based on a situation like this is a stretch even for me.

[Semper Catholic]

I'm not condemning him, I'm condemning the University for not taking appropriate action. The Duke Lacrosse Team is not an apt comparison. The DA running the case was a buffoon and immediately bungled it.

With that said, Duke took appropriate action suspending play while the investigation unfolded.

Coincidentally, ND's arch rival has handled a problem like this appropriately (even more confusing considering they are one of the most irresponsible college programs in the country). Mark Sanchez, while a Freshman at USC (he now plays for the Jets) was accused of sexual assault. He was removed from the team during the investigation, but allowed to rejoin once he was cleared.

Idk, maybe I like sports more then most so it's not a big deal. I'd just like to see ND take some legitimate action instead of sweeping things under the rug.

Also for a Catholic you sure don't seem to show much empathy for "jumpers." That was a pretty unsettling post.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290463960' post='2188646']
So innocent people shouldn't be allowed to play football while under investigation.

I believe in executing rapists, but to say we assume guilt based on a situation like this is a stretch even for me.
[/quote]

People are held in jail while on trial all the time. Certainly not being able to play football for a few games wouldn't hurt, and the university wouldn't have to deal with this ensuing PR disaster, not to mention the player could just as easily redshirt.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290464440' post='2188649']


Also for a Catholic you sure don't seem to show much empathy for "jumpers." That was a pretty unsettling post.
[/quote]


Empathy has its time and place.

The psychological teams the University brought in recommended they stop having public prayer vigils for the suicide victims. Sick as it may seem, the elaborate, public displays of grief and empathy for the deceased were encouraging copy cat deaths. It was a big debate, because people felt it was harsh not to allow public mourning of classmates. NYU chose to follow this advice; my own University went on with the vigils.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1290464944' post='2188653']
Empathy has its time and place.

The psychological teams the University brought in recommended they stop having public prayer vigils for the suicide victims. Sick as it may seem, the elaborate, public displays of grief and empathy for the deceased were encouraging copy cat deaths. It was a big debate, because people felt it was harsh not to allow public mourning of classmates. NYU chose to follow this advice; my own University went on with the vigils.
[/quote]

Cool Story Bro.

[mcts]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290457389' post='2188623']
What's been "proven" is unlikely what really happened. Ben Roethlisberger wasn't charged with sexual assault either. Truth is that if a young lady is intoxicated when an event occurs the possibility of a conviction is slim to none.

I just know that there aren't a whole lot of girls who kill themselves over having consensual sex. What should have happened is that the player should not have been on the team while the investigation was occurring. If he's cleared of all charges then let him back on. As it was, I doubt player X's loss would make a significant impact on a football that isn't even bowl eligible yet.

Further, ND football has always prided itself on going after student-athletes who are "more then just football players." Apparently this mantra has been pushed to the side in order for them to win more football games.
[/quote]

If the girl was religious (as many girls are at this Catholic institution) then it could be a major issue for her. The football players around here are treated as super-human. It would not surprise me at all if the girl willingly (at the time, at least) allowed this to happen, but then later felt major regret for it. Pair that with pre-existing depression and you can become suicidal very quickly.

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290458509' post='2188629']
Attack or not, this player should not have been playing football well under a police investigation. Notre Dame, which is arguably the most recognizable symbol of Catholicism in America, has dropped the ball continuously now regarding issues of their crown jewel Football Program.

I would certainly there would be more outrage about this. Apparently I am mistaken, and disappointed as well.
[/quote]

If I read correctly, it says that there weren't any charges being pressed. I have no doubt in my mind that if there were, then something would be done. At this point, though, if the player doesn't confess to doing this, then there is no proof that he did anything.