Modesty Vs. Morality

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 21 2004, 11:55 AM'] What is the justification for the tight swimming trunks men wear? Or the tight shirts, or no shirts at all?

What is the justification of men working out?

People wear bathing suits for 3 general reasons.
To get wet, to tan, and to be seen. [/quote]
Your point has already been addressed. Read my post from earlier (I think on the previous page).

[pinstripes]

it's a cultural norm because DEPENDING ON THE BIKINI, the majority of people don't look upon a girl w/ any unusual judment. wearing a 'string bikini' that pushes the boundries of modesty and purity is not justifiable because thats not the norm. it's popularized by the media, but go to any beach and look around... most girls don't feel comfortable to wear them.

a good reason that a girl can wear a bikini can be made out of pure practicality... (ladies, please help). i konw that for me, i wear a bathing suit that is more along the lines of shorts because thats what suits me (another bad pun... i'm done for sure). if i were on a swim team, i'd be in a speedo, or if thats what i felt more comfortable in, i'd wear one to the beach. is that a problem? it shouldn't be. does it conflict w/ any of the CCC's teachings? i don't think it does.

[pinstripes]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 21 2004, 10:55 AM'] If there is no absolute moral standard, then there is no moral law whatsoever. [/quote]
if there is no absolute form of liturgy, is there no liturgy at all? (in reference to other forms of the Mass)

[CreepyCrawler]

Man, all this debate about bikinis. I think beaches are sinful. We should ban them. Okay, I'm kidding.

I don't think wearing a bikini is a sin necessarily (what if you wear clothes over your bikini? you're still wearing a bikini, but not exposing yourself. so the sin is exposing yourself, not wearing certain piece of clothing. Granted, bikinis help facilitate exposure). But intention has something to do with it. For example, if you're in the hot tub with your husband, it's not a sin. If you're alone just to get a complete tan, then it's not a sin. If you buy a bikini to look like the hottest thing on the beach and get guys' attentions, I think it would be a sin (even if you don't realize it) b/c the way you get guys' attention is by causing them to lust after you. It's a sin to intentionally try and get guys to lust after you, which is what many girls are after, even if they just think it's about attention and not lust.

That being said, it's also a sin to lust after a girl in a bikini. Yes it's hard not to, but you can't completely blame the girl for your sin. (I think cmom said it) She may be sinning but you don't have to add to it. You can look away or even possibly reach a point where you have so much love for a person that you see them as God does. The bikini wearer and the luster are both equally responsible. Maybe moreso the luster because he knows he's lusting whereas the girl may be ignorant of the fact that she's causing someone to sin or manipulating the men (maybe she's not, but how are we to know?)

I think we need to all put this in the perspective of love: are we willing to make sacrifices for other people out of love? how much sacrifice to keep someone from sin? women, are we willing to wear clothes that may not look as nice/be less fashionable/be hotter (as in hot weather) to keep our brothers from sinning? men, are you willing to step out of your comfort zones to tell a woman what effect she's having on you/to control your eyes/to leave the situation if necessary (i.e. -- don't go to nude beaches/miami/the entire country of brazil )? i would hope that we love each other enough to make these kind of sacrifices for each other.

I think this whole bikini debate is kind of amusing b/c it's not exactly what the point of the thread is about and yet people feel so strongly about it. Does America have some sort of problem with the human body? I think it does because it objectifies people too much. But exposing ourselves is no solution. Why act as if we don't objectify when we really do? I think being modest (and even overly modest can't hurt) is a natural response and even though it's sad that modesty must sometimes come from the need to protect ourselves from lustful eyes and not because we are covering sacred things, that's the way things are. Maybe one day we can have nude beaches where people don't lust after each other, but until then I'm going to keep my shirts buttoned up and my skirts really long.

Hmm... I feel as if now I've gotten off-track. Forgive my randomness.

that's cool --->

[cmotherofpirl]

The Church says people should be modest. Modesty is a relative term.

[popestpiusx]

pinstripes,
YEs it does! You are not rooting your decision in anything other than relativity. Your comfort? How is that a standard? If I am comfortable naked does that justify my being that way in public? A string bikini only pushes the limit of modesty?? What is your standard of modesty? The difference between a string bikini and a regular one is but a couple inches of material. What do you consider necesary to cover up? Please read what the Catechism actually says about modesty!! Read the writings of the saints and the words of the Blessed Virgin. Something being in fashion or culturally accepted DOES NOT justify anything. Nor does practicality

Edited April 21, 2004 by popestpiusx

[Homestarlover85]

just wondering? are nude beaches immoral?

[popestpiusx]

Please read:

O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making for yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians." - Pope Pius XII

[popestpiusx]

Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions. Our Lord is always the same." -Our Lady of Fatima, warning the people of the 1920s of the fashions that were to come for Catholic women. It wasn't a warning of the fashions that were to come for protestants and pagans since they were already indulging in indecent fashions. It was a warning to the Children of God, who are going to imitate them.

[popestpiusx]

As long as certain audacious modes of dress remain the sad privilege of women of dubious reputation and almost a sign by which they may be known, no-one else would dare to wear that same dress upon herself: but the moment that it appears upon persons beyond all reproach, she will hesitate no longer to follow the current, a current which will drag her perhaps to the worst fall." -Pope Pius XII, May 22, 1941

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 21 2004, 01:09 PM'] YEs it does! You are not rooting your decision in anything other than relativity. Your comfort? How is that a standard? If I am comfortable naked does that justify my being that way in public? A string bikini only pushes the limit of modesty?? What is your standard of modesty? The difference between a string bikini and a regular one is but a couple inches of material. What do you consider necesary to cover up? Please read what the Catechism actually says about modesty!! Read the writings of the saints and the words of the Blessed Virgin. Something being in fashion or culturally accepted DOES NOT justify anything. Nor does practicality [/quote]
I don't recall any books authored by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

[pinstripes]

these are all standards of modesty in the 20th century...

how do these aply durring the oppresive victorian era?

it's apple and oranges...

my standard of morality is outlined in the CCC. in that curcumfrence i train my conscience. with that conscience, i make my decisions. that's how i have a standard and how theres an allowence of my personal preference.

how do you fold your hands when you pray? how ever you prefer.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='pinstripes' date='Apr 21 2004, 12:03 PM'] if there is no absolute form of liturgy, is there no liturgy at all? (in reference to other forms of the Mass) [/quote]
That is a rediculous analogy. Morals and liturgy are two very distinct entities. However, though there is not an absolute form of liturgy (if by that you mean the ritual aspect of it), there is certainly an absolute standard acoorfing to which all liturgies must comply for licitness and validity. Even in the realm of the ritual there is a very high absolute standard by which all liturgies are judged.

We must not go into this any further, lest we completely change the topic of this thread to debating liturgical norms.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 21 2004, 12:17 PM'] I don't recall any books authored by the Blessed Virgin Mary. [/quote]
Never said she did. I said "read the words of the BVM". See above quote. By the way, I have a feeling that you would be arguing the same thing that I am if I was not here.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 21 2004, 09:55 AM']







[/quote]
[quote]What is the justification for the tight swimming trunks men wear?[/quote]

None.

[quote]Or the tight shirts, or no shirts at all?[/quote]

Tight Shirt or not shirt? Really there is no issue. Men don't have "private" parts on their chest. To wear no shirt isn't scandelous for a man. I agree it could be immodest. But when it gets sweltering hot, I like to take my shirt off to be cooler.

Women have to protect their modesty for other reasons - like their private parts are right there. Tight clothes on women, bottom or top, reveals their sex organs / private areas. Yes, tight pants on men is not good. Tight shirt or no shirt, that's really no prob. We have nothing to hide there.


[quote]What is the justification of men working out? [/quote]


To get stronger for certain things, like maybe work... To be healthy, feel better. Not necessarily to show off the goods.

This issue becomes a lot more subjective with men. Not because I'm a man. Just logically. We have much less of a sexual / privat region to cover and guard.


[quote]People wear bathing suits for 3 general reasons.
To get wet, to tan, and to be seen.[/quote]


And does this justify a bikini? Does it justify a woman showing her breasts basically? A girl can get wet and have fun and be "seen" modestly.

So can a guy.


[quote]How much does a woman have to cover up to be acceptable to you?[/quote]

It doesn't matter what's "acceptable" to me. If God was standing there would he wish that your boobs be exposed? I don't think so. Bikini's are unnecessary.

[quote]And remember I can put the exact same bathing suit on two different people with drastically different results.[/quote]

But the results will vary with the audience. I might not find an overweight person attractive (that is I believe what you were hinting at), but others do.

An exposed partial breast is an ocassion to sin no matter how "ugly" the person is (whatever "ugly" may mean).