Modesty Vs. Morality

[Azriel]

This thread is just unbelievable to me.

Totally unbelievable.

A bikini is a mortal sin?

Considering what else is considered mortal sins, I'm thinking that is quite low on the totem pole.

[pinstripes]

the bikini is not the sin. a piece of clothing can not be sinful. the usage of it is what is sinful, and if you use it to be sinful, then there-ya-go, that's sinful.

if a bikini is sinful because it reveals too much, and it's been implied that tight clothing also falls into the catagory as something that isn't modest, than the conclusion would be drawn that the only modest atire for the beach would be a lose shirt that goes all the way past your knees, and doesn't turn transparent when wet.

fun stuff, lemme tell ya.


why is it a sin? if we can't address that clearly than we cannot see the reasons for the customs and restrictions clearly.

is nudity a sin? No.

CCC:[quote]2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person. [/quote]

2521 stresses the importance of modesty. to be pure, one has to be modest. "It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden." this doesn't name anything specific that should be hidden, but rules out that it's perfectly fine to lead a nudist lifestyle. it also stresses that modesty is what guides our chastity and our image that we protray to others about our own dignity.

2522 notes that 'modesty inspires one's choice of clothing.' the conclusion can be made that there is a need to dress modestly then.

in 2523 it states that we should be modest to prevent others from viewing our bodies as lust-objects, who already seek to find a form of this ("voyeristic explorations")
it also mentions that we shouldn't present our intamate parts to others.

in 2524, says directly that standards of modesty "vary form one culture to another," and that it comes through a person's intelect and consciousness of their spirituality and dignity.




so, how far do we want to stretch this or confine it? is your intimate part of your body simply what your underware covers, or your sholders, low neckline, hips, back, stomach, etc.?



...at least by Catholic standards

Edited April 20, 2004 by pinstripes

[Azriel]

Excuse me. In part of because of my incredulity at the very thought of this debate (not modesty & morality) I mispoke.

I meant, Wearing a Bikini, not the bikini itself.

I think that the statement: "wearing a bikini is a mortal sin" is beyond ridiculous.

[pinstripes]

i second it

[God Conquers]

Guys, let's get serious here. I was walking today, and this guy was driving a totally cool car, and this other guy looked at it with envy. The guy who drove the car... mortal sinner, hope he doesn't get into a crash.

[pinstripes]

i see what you're [i]driving[/i] at, but a car and a body is only a fairly accurate analogy...



i'm gunna get thrown off the boars for that pun, i just know it.

[Dave]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 20 2004, 11:08 PM'] Guys, let's get serious here. I was walking today, and this guy was driving a totally cool car, and this other guy looked at it with envy. The guy who drove the car... mortal sinner, hope he doesn't get into a crash. [/quote]
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[popestpiusx]

I must admit that I have not been this distressed in quite sometime. Have we as a Church gone this far downhill? Are you people serious? Your arguments are empty of substance, logically inconsistent, and indicative of a very unfortunate trend among modern Catholics. Your arguments are saturated with cultural relativism. You think this is not a serious issue? I am truely dumbfounded.

[Azriel]

It is not that the issue of modesty is not serious. Of course it is. However, the blanket statement of wearing a bikini is a mortal sin is.

The catchechism statest that modesty is culturally based ... back up there in pinstripes post. So, if it is, then wearing a two piece bathing suit is acceptable, because it isn't considered to be beyond the norm.

Instead of condeming everyone who's ever worn a bikini and walking around judging the states of their souls - how about we just teach our children to be modest and respectful. Teach our sons and daugthers that our bodies are to be respected.

That's all I'm saying.

Lack of Modesty in our Society is a problem. However, narrowing it down to wearing a bikini is a mortal sin remains, to me, beyond ridiculous.

As for me, well, its darn hot in the summer, and I will wear sleeveless tops and shorts.

Judge me if you will.

[Sojourner]

I have to say that I’m disturbed by the sentiment I see displayed here that a woman wearing a bikini [i]causes [/i]a man to lust. Yes, we need to be respectful of our brothers in the way we dress. Yes, we need to be respectful of our bodies in the way we dress.

But when a person lusts, it is [i]his or her choice [/i]to do so. Take some responsibility for your own sin. Don’t pin it all on your sisters. The whole point of the cross is that we can get past “the woman made me do it. We're given a way to untwist the sin within our own hearts.

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t confront one another in love, and keep one another accountable for our actions … but there’s a line we need to walk that I’m not sure we’re on here.

Just some observations.

Abby

Edited April 21, 2004 by Sojourner

[ilovechrist]

WHY are we judging only on bikinis here? open up the picture a bit more when you talk about dressing immodestly---it's a lot more than that... stuff from skirts to thongs, halter tops... etc. also--keep in mind that sojourner is right, that it is our choice to lust, but girls need to know what they are causing the guys to do--and act upon that, for the guys' sake, and their own.
just a few miscellaneous thoughts...

Edited April 21, 2004 by ilovechrist

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ilovechrist' date='Apr 21 2004, 10:19 AM'] WHY are we judging only on bikinis here? open up the picture a bit more when you talk about dressing immodestly---it's a lot more than that... stuff from skirts to thongs, halter tops... etc. also--keep in mind that sojourner is right, that it is our choice to lust, but girls need to know what they are causing the guys to do--and act upon that, for the guys' sake, and their own.
just a few miscellaneous thoughts... [/quote]
I don't disagree with that. The bikini just kind of became th scapegoat for the argument.

[cmotherofpirl]

Several thoughts:

Lust is a choice. It begins when you objectify the person you are looking at. This can occur anywhere, no matter what the person is wearing, and can happen in marriage as well.

Clothing choices of men and women can use improvement. We know this.But few women are willing to cover every inch of their body just in case a man can't control his mind( unless you are islamic)

Young girls do not really understand the physical effect they can have on the teenage male, because we don't respond quite the same way. Girls do bear a responsibility to cover all parts up. Boys have the responsibility to say to a girl, your clothing or lack of it, makes me uncomtfortable. Boys have a hard time saying this,.unless the girl happens to be [u]their[/u] sister or girlfriend.

And some girls, you could them in a burka, and still have a male respond in lust.

We are Temples of the Holy Spirit, not display cases. Every culture has a different view to what constitutes a display case.

Edited April 21, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[ilovechrist]

thank you cmom--that helps clarify what i wanted to say. your.. next to last line i have to completely agree with--girls still look beautiful in burkas

[Jake Huether]

WWMD.

What would Mary do?

If it was culturally acceptable - do you think she'd wear a bikini? HIGHLY unlikely. Short sleave shirt and shorts are different. There is absolutly NO need for a string Bikini? What for? What good is it other than to show off "your stuff". If the Bikini was the very last swim article on the face of the earth, then maybe the argument is justified. But if a girl goes out to buy a bikini, I see no justification. It is a stumbling block for men (me in particular). I'm not passing the sin off on others - I try my hardest as it is! Guys like me need all the help they can get. There are indeed modest 2 piece swimmsuits. The midsection of a young lady is not quite as offensive as the whole breast save for a little stip of clothe over the center.

If you ask me, yes, bikini wearing IS a sin. There is no justification for it other than 1.) lustful intentions, 2.) prideful intentions, 3.) vanity.

In the event that the bikini is used by a person who is by themselves with their husband (or by themselves) MAYBE there is justification - but if that is the case, why not just go nude??