Livin_the_MASS Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. We do not own ourselves. To be naked causes lust. It doesn't matter if you are at a place that allows it. Jesus was pure, that is not following His example of purity! Dressing for Holy Mass well I will say it is not a beach party and modesty is most appropriate. At the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Alabama they had dress rules! I say Amen to that. God Bless Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 (edited) I think if we explicate the proper reasons why modesty is necessary, then the "how to be modest" question is easier to answer. It is not simply a matter of whether this or that is a doctrine. Pius XI and St. Pio both said what they did because of the very nature of mankind. We shouldn't be asking "how short can my skirt be" (not that I would have the occasion to ask this, and if I do I expect someone to put me out of my misery) but rather, what is the most pleasing to God, what is more likely to assist me and my fellow man in living a life of virtue, and at the lowest level, will I be an occasion of sin to other people? We striving for virtue, not seeing how close to the line we can come. Aquinas taught that morality I based on reason informed by human nature. When considering the issue of modesty, be reasonable. Think about human nature. If a girl is wearing a bikini (in public) she is being immodest, no matter what her intention. She may as well be walking around in public in a bra and panties. Is not that providing an occasion of sin for any normal male she happens to encounter? Of course. Modesty is not about the person’s intentions but in objective standards reasonably derived from human nature. Edited April 20, 2004 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 (edited) [quote]I liked the comment about the point of how you are dressing or why you are nude. I think that modesty is more a matter of what you are THINKING, or the reasons why you dress the way you do than what you are actually wearing. For example, if a girl wears a bikini becuase she thinks she looks good in it, thats one thing. if a girl wears a bikni because she wnats to make OTHER people think she looks good in it, i think thats immodesty[/quote] That is very faulty logic. If anything, modesty depends much more on those around the person than on the person herself. To wear a bikini is a mortal sin, period. As I said on another recent modesty thread, if this is not grave immodesty, what is, nudity?? [quote]Appropriate modesty is not defined by oneself but by the ones around you. For example, if wearing a certain article of clothing will cause lust, then it is immodest. On the contrary, there are places where nudity is fine and not meant to be erotic (nude beaches for example). In that case, it is not immodest. Adam and Eve were nude in the garden before they knew shame and lust. [/quote] This, too, is faulty logic...Adam and Eve were not scandalized by the other's nudity BEFORE they commited sin. Then what did they do? They covered themselves. It is clear that this original sin is what called for modesty because this new inclination to sin could not be contained while nude. No Catholic can actually support nude beaches...that is just absurd. I can only wonder what Pope Pius XI would say about that (or any Pope for that matter). [quote]Pope Pius (can't remember which Pope Pius it was) said that. But I doubt he meant to teach it as doctrine but was rather stating his opinions on the subject. [/quote] Yet nowadays every "conservative" takes anything the Pope says as absolutely infallible, no questions asked. For example, he is personally against the death penalty, so all the neo-cons are, too. If we all acted this way in areas where the Pope's opinion actually MAKES SENSE...then we would all be MUCH better off. However, I would hardly call this the "Pope's opinion." The Magesterium clearly stated declaritavely that a dress CANNOT BE CALLED MODEST if it violates the rules I have already mentioned. That doesn't seem like it is very much of an opinion. St. Pio, yes, had his personal rule. However, the Magesterium clearly defined what is and what is not modest. These guidelines MUST be followed. Further, these rules did not say that "if you wear something blatantly against these rules (such as a bikini), as long as you think it's OK, then it is." That is the epitome of relativism. I don't see how someone can say that nude beaches, bikinis, ect. are OK. If they are OK sometimes then they should be permitted all the time. It makes not sense to say that something that is absolutely vulgar and immodest when worn outside of its "secular purpose" (e.g., a bikini in a church) is OK when worn outside of church (at a pool, for example). That is to say that those who go to church must not be the same people when they are outside of church because they are scandalized in one situation and not the other. This would not only be absurd in church but also walking along the street or anywhere in the real world outside of a pool, beach, etc. How is it that you can "turn off" whether you are scandalized or not? If this were the case you would never be scandalized because you could always just "turn it off." This theory is absurd. God bless. Edited April 20, 2004 by CatholicCrusader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripes Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 (edited) oops.. double post... my next post is what i wanted to say Edited April 20, 2004 by pinstripes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I am not offended by females wearing what they so do choose becuase it rarly affects me anymore. However, there are many out there at are affected by it so I would stress common sense. And don't dress to show off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripes Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote]I read or heard something on this recently which, if I remember correctly, was along the lines that in this country, the extremes we have experienced ranging from prudery to promiscuity are two sides of the same coin, neither of which represent a true respect for and appreciation of the body. Modesty should stem from a proper respect for the body, which PSPX articulates well, not from a sense that the body is shameful in and of itself.[/quote] that's exactly what i was driving at... that we might have confused prudity with modesty. [quote]Appropriate modesty is not defined by oneself but by the ones around you. For example, if wearing a certain article of clothing will cause lust, then it is immodest. On the contrary, there are places where nudity is fine and not meant to be erotic (nude beaches for example). In that case, it is not immodest. Adam and Eve were nude in the garden before they knew shame and lust. [/quote] i dunno... i don't think adam and eve can aply here because they had no sin on them when they were naked.... wheather or not an attractive guy or girl covers all their skin, they can still cause others to lust just as much. their actions and intentions are still what make an impression on others. if a 'hot' girl is wearing jeans and a sweatshirt and acting like a total [url="http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/floozie"]floozie[/url], you're gunna think of her as one. if a girl wearing a 'bikini in public' is feeding orphans, you're not going to think of her as someone who is all about her body. mary magdaline probably dressed like a floozie for the times, yet, Jesus saw past that to her intentions of following Him. so, is the greater sin on the person who causes other to lust, or others for viewing the person as an object and not seeing the image of Christ within? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 ... oi haha i retract my comments. i thought about it and i changed my mind. on a sidenote, biknis are acceptable, on the beach that is. Isnt jp2 quoted as saying something along the lines of bathing suits are appropriate while simming? something like that. I think that for church we should go out of our way to be overly modest, becuase it is a place of God and we shouldnt be trying to attract the opposite sex while trying to focus on God. I think that outside of Church and Swimming, modesty is a tricky thing. I think that if your dressing for the bedroom it shows. Being a guy, I dont worry about myself too much. Can guys dress immodestly? Jeans and a t-shirt? Jeans and a hoody? Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Everyone should wear either stormtrooper, scout trooper, snow trooper, or sandtrooper armor. That way, our entire bodies will be covered. Not to mention the armor is white, so the sun will bounce off of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Kind of like a space aged burqa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreepyCrawler Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 i've always wondered, why do so many catholic girls' schools require knee-length skirts (they can be rolled up higher, too) when those can be quite immodest (think of how the 'catholic school girl' outfit is now sexified, esp. by britney spears)? wouldn't it be better to just have the girls wear ugly pants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 i dont think the point of catholic schoolgirls is to be ugly and repulsive to boys. girls at the local catholic school get detentions for rolling their skirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Catholic Crusader.. you think wearing a bikini is a MORTAL SIN!? Can you back that up? Somehow I can't imagine every women who has died in a bikini being sent to hell for what she was wearing at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 19 2004, 11:00 PM'] Catholic Crusader.. you think wearing a bikini is a MORTAL SIN!? Can you back that up? Somehow I can't imagine every women who has died in a bikini being sent to hell for what she was wearing at the time. [/quote] He apparently thinks that women who wear bikinis automatically do it to make guys lust after them. But that's very judgmental. Granted, it may not always be wise to wear bikinis, but it would only be a mortal sin if a girl knew it would make the guys lust after her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripes Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 thats interesting... the proper atire to Mass business... is it better for a guy to wear a suit and tie to Mass as opposed to his everyday clothes? me for instance... i own one suit. it's the "nicest" thing i own, but should i wear it every week to Mass, or should i wear my normal pants (usually nice jeans or chords) and a t-shirt or sometimes a button-down shirt to Mass because that's who i am every other day of the week? to me, i feel like it's just like the people who go to Mass and think they're holier than they are by going to church and being a jerk for the rest of the week. wearing a suit and tie doesn't change who i am the other days of the week. if i dress modest and don't advertize anything vilgar or inapropreate on my shirts, then is that alright to go to Mass in? to me, it shouldn't matter. CreepyCrawler's point about Catholic school girls wearing dirty old pants kind of makes sense, like how some religious orders chose to wear the least quality/fashonable things they can find because it shows their humility. if i wore my everyday mundain clothes, would that be a more accurate representation of who i am before God? also, i don't like to spend a lot of money on clothes when there are others who need the $60 more than i need $60+ jeans when i can get good ones for cheeper, so why is it looked down upon for wearing jeans for Mass instead of $60+ dress pants (guys)? to me, that's just petty and judgmental, yet, it's still not accepted to wear jeans in Mass, no matter how clean they may be... (sorry i just kind of went on and on. lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote name='pinstripes' date='Apr 20 2004, 01:41 AM'] thats interesting... the proper atire to Mass business... is it better for a guy to wear a suit and tie to Mass as opposed to his everyday clothes? me for instance... i own one suit. it's the "nicest" thing i own, but should i wear it every week to Mass, or should i wear my normal pants (usually nice jeans or chords) and a t-shirt or sometimes a button-down shirt to Mass because that's who i am every other day of the week? to me, i feel like it's just like the people who go to Mass and think they're holier than they are by going to church and being a jerk for the rest of the week. wearing a suit and tie doesn't change who i am the other days of the week. if i dress modest and don't advertize anything vilgar or inapropreate on my shirts, then is that alright to go to Mass in? to me, it shouldn't matter. CreepyCrawler's point about Catholic school girls wearing dirty old pants kind of makes sense, like how some religious orders chose to wear the least quality/fashonable things they can find because it shows their humility. if i wore my everyday mundain clothes, would that be a more accurate representation of who i am before God? also, i don't like to spend a lot of money on clothes when there are others who need the $60 more than i need $60+ jeans when i can get good ones for cheeper, so why is it looked down upon for wearing jeans for Mass instead of $60+ dress pants (guys)? to me, that's just petty and judgmental, yet, it's still not accepted to wear jeans in Mass, no matter how clean they may be... (sorry i just kind of went on and on. lol) [/quote] That's something to think about right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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