Who Was Paul?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291165634' post='2190103']
It is the duty of all Catholics to try to help the Church correct errors even if we don't have the means.
[/quote]
How wonderful that the Church finally now has you to straighten it out, after being wrong for all those two thousand years since Christ founded it!

Of course, the Church must be corrected to believe whatever we believe, rather than vice-versa.

Viva democracy!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1291083324' post='2189936']
Did you just call him fat?
[/quote]
No, I called him a fighter pilot in the Rebel Alliance.

[dominicansoul]

St. Paul, pray for us!

[Socrates]

[quote]But do you have to believe that Jesus was God to be a Christian?[/quote]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1291091371' post='2189963']
Yes.
[/quote]


[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1291097270' post='2189980']
floopy yeah
[/quote]

What they said!

[Seven77]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291098781' post='2189989']
[/quote]


That was the clearest post I've read in a while---except for this misleading statement:

"[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]I think my problem is your treating these religions as if they are both giant monoliths that [i]have[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong"[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]Fix: [/size][/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#000000"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="3"]"[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]I think my problem is your treating Islam as if it was a giant monolith that [i]has[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong"[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291251195' post='2190268']
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291165634' post='2190103']
It is the duty of all Catholics to try to help the Church correct errors [b]even if we don't have the means. [/b]
[/quote]
How wonderful that the Church finally now has you to straighten it out, after being wrong for all those two thousand years since Christ founded it!

Of course, the Church must be corrected to believe whatever we believe, rather than vice-versa.

Viva democracy!
[/quote]

Here's a classical example of where you're Reybing. I'm clearly stating that I may not have the capacity to change even the slightest thing, but you interpret it quite differently. You keep making your claims picking out Scripture you favour and ignoring what you don't agree with. That makes you the one that is trying to vastly alter 2000 years of Christian teaching.
And you keep hedging on the paedophilia debacle bringing it back to the individual sins of the false prophet priests. I'm clearly talking about [u]the Churches error in it's handling of the evil.[/u]
The church clearly states that it is a teaching that we must point out the good in Islam and remain silent about anything else for the promotion of peace and suppression of incited hatred. You claim obedience to the Church then refuse to obey her.

I think 'Ice_nine' has already pointed out that the bubbles you keep blowing are bursting on your face not ours.

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1291315562' post='2190417']
That was the clearest post I've read in a while---except for this misleading statement:

"[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]I think my problem is [b]your[/b] treating these religions as if they are both giant monoliths that [i]have[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong"[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]Fix: [/size][/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#000000"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="3"]"[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]I think my problem is [b]your[/b] treating Islam as if it was a giant monolith that [i]has[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong"[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Where's Winchester -your or you're?
Not sure what you're implying other than a possible grammatical error. Maybe you could explain it further?

I might have to go to confession and confess how envious I am at her ability.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Seven77]

Mark, please read Ice_ nine's last post and then read mine. [b]Christianity in its fullness---One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic---IS 100% correct.[/b]

Islam however is a religion of truth and error intermixed---Ice_nine is correct to imply[i] that[/i]. Actually, if his emphasis is on the word BOTH he is correct about everything he wrote and there is no problem. Is that right Ice?

Edited December 3, 2010 by Seven77

[Seven77]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291326976' post='2190456']

Where's Winchester -your or you're?
Not sure what you're implying other than a possible grammatical error. Maybe you could explain it further?

I might have to go to confession and confess how envious I am at [b]her[/b] ability.
[/quote]


um.. Winchester is masculine like the riffle they named after him.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1291334934' post='2190476']
Mark, please read Ice_ nine's last post and then read mine. [b]Christianity in its fullness---One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic---IS 100% correct.[/b]

Islam however is a religion of truth and error intermixed---Ice_nine is correct to imply[i] that[/i]. Actually, if his emphasis is on the word BOTH he is correct about everything he wrote and there is no problem. Is that right Ice?
[/quote]

I have no Y chromosome (on a side note every message board I've been to seems to think I'm a guy. I guess I tend to pick masculine screennames )

Let me clarify. I believe Official Church Teaching is 100% true. We are actually in agreement there. However, I'm looking at Christianity from a comprehensive view and perhaps this is where our signals got crossed. When you look at Christianity from a historical, sociological perspective and analyze its morality [b]sure [/b]the teachings handed down by the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture are 100% accurate but not everything the Church has done (on a mass scale) has been moral. We all know the Church has done terrible things that I don't need to list here. So that's really the only thing I meant when I said Christianity is not a monolith in every aspect. In theory Catholicism is the fullest revelation of the truth we have but, since we are sinful creatures living in a fallen world etc etc, Catholicism is not perfect in practice. Whereas I would say BOTH the teachings and actual historical outcomes/impacts of Islam have varying degrees of truth and error.

Does this make sense or are we still on different pages? Perhaps I didn't choose my words carefully enough in my previous post. I'm hoping this clarifies.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291245629' post='2190261']
True Christian teaching (through the Magisterium of the Church) is indeed a "monolithic" body of teaching, not something you can pick and choose from as you please.[/quote]

Yes a true and faithful Catholic must trust the official teachings given to us by the Magisterium. But it doesn't have an official teaching on every single topic so there IS room for variety of opinion and practices concerning things like theology and devotion. Like for example, are you a Thomist, Molinist, or Augustinian? In this sense you can "pick and choose" while still being in line with Church Teaching.

[quote]And no Muslims believe that Christ is God and our Savior.[/quote]

oooookay. I don't know if you are insinuating if I or anyone else in this thread has either said or implied that even, but I don't believe anyone has. So if you are making that insinuation, it's unnecessary.

[quote]Are you saying the Christian Faith is right about some things and wrong about others, and likewise with Islam?[/quote]

What do you mean by "the Christian Faith"? If you define that term strictly as official teaching of the Magisterium then no that's not what I'm saying. Maybe my response to Seven77 will clarify my point further for you.

[quote]If so, perhaps you should stop calling yourself "Catholic."[/quote]

OK surrsly I haven't counted how many times you've inferred or outright said this, but it's getting old.

[quote]What is true in Islam (One God, etc.) it took from the true religion of Christ, and added only falsehoods.[/quote]

"took." Interesting word choice. As if the truth belonged solely to Christianity. God IS truth. While I believe Catholicism is the fullest revelation of Truth that we have, I don't think it has a monopoly on God.

[quote]And my statements on Islam on this site are not directed primarily at Muslims, but at Catholics making statements tending towards religious indifferentism, which is a serious error which ought to be corrected.[/quote]

Yeah man, whatever religion you want. Just cause it's not true to you doesn't mean it's true to someone else*

[quote]or downplaying that fact[/quote]

I guess the term "downplaying" is relative. I could say you are downplaying the truths found in Nostra Aetate.

So you're saying I'm being dishonest? I think your mind is so rigidly set in your own thought process that you're having trouble comprehending my words for what they actually are. You're reading them through lenses that are tired of syncreticism, religious indifferentism, and moral relativism and while I [i]get[/i] that, I think it's causing you to be hypersensitive in your detection of these things. I [i]see[/i] where you are coming from. I've stepped outside of myself and looked from your vantage point and I really do understand your perception. This is why I'm trying to bridge the gap of understanding in the most honest way I can. Seems to me like you're not making a similar effort but merely clinging to your convictions and blocking your ears (or eyes in this case?).

[quote]
I'll say it again: Islam is a false religion and Mohammed a false prophet.

I'm not going to pretend otherwise [/quote]

Apparently, you do not understand where my contention lies.

*in case your sarcasm meter is malfuctioning . . . here's the disclaimer

Edited December 4, 2010 by Ice_nine

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291098781' post='2189989']
[/quote]


We give respect to muslims and their religion but muslims not................ and within no time they hang us on the 295 C (Pakistan's law).
I request all to phatmass phorum members that keep us in their prayers.
Thanks

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvyy6K6dPUA"]watch here what is happening with Christians in Pakistan[/url]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='CatholicWing' timestamp='1291428720' post='2190852']
We give respect to muslims and their religion but muslims not................ and within no time they hang us on the 295 C (Pakistan's law).
I request all to phatmass phorum members that keep us in their prayers.
Thanks

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvyy6K6dPUA"]watch here what is happening with Christians in Pakistan[/url]
[/quote]

Sorry I don't quite understand you. I understand that sometimes Muslims do horrible things, even in the name of religion. Nowadays Catholics aren't into threatening death against those who don't convert, but once upon a time a significant number of them were. People are capable of doing really ugly things. Sometimes they sin in the name of God. I don't condone this. No [i]decent[/i] person would regardless of what religion they espouse.

I always try to remember to pray for Christians living in hostile areas. May God bless them and be with them. If you are one of those people (I can't really tell from your post but that's what I think you're saying) I will certainly remember to pray for you and I'll give you my deepest respect to you and anyone else who is willing to risk their life for their faith.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1291335426' post='2190478']
um.. Winchester is masculine like the riffle they named after him.
[/quote]

Sorry my error, I was still thinking in terms of replying to Ice_nine. It was her that I was referring to that I'm envious of.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291417992' post='2190809']
When you look at Christianity from a historical, sociological perspective and analyze its morality [b]sure [/b]the teachings handed down by the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture are 100% accurate but not everything the Church has done (on a mass scale) has been moral. [b]We all know the Church has done terrible things that I don't need to list here. [/b]
[/quote]

This is where I'm confused and no doubt many non Catholics would be also. Don't we teach by our actions as well as words? How can the Church have done terrible things and be 100% right in it's teachings? Do you mean it was wrong before but is right now?

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1291334934' post='2190476']
[b]Christianity in its fullness---One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic---IS 100% correct.[/b]

[/quote]
This seems to be saying that when the Catholic Church is right about something then it is 100% right about it.

I gave an example on the Churches handling of Paedophile Priests as an example of where the Church crashed rather badly on Mt Erebus. It may appear that I'm harping on this, but it's a current issue and is pretty much indisputable. I fail rather badly on history, so I didn't want to mention things that may not be true such as burning people for reading the Bible, or the Heretic burning debacle. But I'm pretty sure that the Church could write a volume on where it got things rather badly wrong. If my information is correct there were times when the Church could have been mistaken for being on the other side. It all started when Peter cut off teh ear. Jesus [b]corrected[/b] Peter with a lesson of 'Live by the sword, die by the sword.' Jesus is an infallible teacher because he is God. All men are sinners and are prone to err. The Church is headed by men! Peter the first Pope failed again when he betrayed Jesus, but by Gods promise 'The Church' will succeed and is infallible in it's purpose and final destination but this does not mean that it is 100% correct on every detail?? And it does not mean that other people cannot succeed also. The same can be applied to scripture. Scripture is truth, but it is open to interpretation and therefore to error. By serious prayer the Church [b]can [/b]and does give correct interpretations, but due to the fallen nature of man it can also err. Undoubtedly somewhere in scripture is a teaching on what the Church should have done when claims of serious evil were posed. But for reasons unknown the Church failed to see this and act. I think the apologies from the Pope are pretty much showing our humbleness and this is the way to attract people by admitting that we are not perfect, which we seem to be claiming by our insistence that the Church is infallible. When people say to me 'so and so' is a Catholic but 'beats his wife and cheats in his business'. I respond by telling them that there is no such thing as a perfect Catholic, we are no better than anyone else, we are just people who wish to be better and move closer to what God wants us to be. I'm imperfect, what a wretched man am I!!!

[quote name='CatholicWing' timestamp='1291428720' post='2190852']
We give respect to muslims and their religion but muslims not................ and within no time they hang us on the 295 C (Pakistan's law).
I request all to phatmass phorum members that keep us in their prayers.
Thanks

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvyy6K6dPUA"]watch here what is happening with Christians in Pakistan[/url]
[/quote]

In Jerusalem the Israelis are doing the same things to Muslims. Deep resentment to Islam would be almost impossible to deal with in your situation and I sympathise and pray for you. But atrocities are committed all over the word for a multitude of religious, racial or other reasons. Take a look at what goes on in Mexico. All evil belongs to satan and we can never be guilty of generalising and condemning the innocent along with the guilty, which is what this thread and the ones past and yet to come are about. I will pray for you and all Christians being oppressed by evil Muslims, but I will also do the reverse.

[quote]"took." Interesting word choice. As if the truth belonged solely to Christianity. God IS truth.[/quote]
He's probably technically correct there. Jesus came to 'Not destroy the laws or the prophets but to fulfil!' The Jewish religion was far from accurate, Jesus brought it to truth. Islam [b]took[/b] what it wanted and discarded what it didn't and added what it favoured.


[quote]While I believe Catholicism is the fullest revelation of Truth that we have, I don't think it has a monopoly on God.
[/quote]
I would agree with that! Peoples where Catholicism has not visited can still have God.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1291335426' post='2190478']
um.. Winchester is masculine like the riffle they named after him.
[/quote]

ouch!