Who Was Paul?

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290997736' post='2189786']
I didn't intend to get a debate going about the Muslims.
[/quote]
Then maybe you shouldn't have posted Mohammedan oppositions to the Christian Faith.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291001700' post='2189802']
You're only saying that because he agrees with you.
[/quote]
It wouldn't have made much sense if he hadn't agreed with me.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291071460' post='2189891']

Keep on target, Porkins.


[/quote]
Did you just call him fat?

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1291083151' post='2189935']
It wouldn't have made much sense if he hadn't agreed with me.
[/quote]

I had written reality and people aware to this reality!!!

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291072531' post='2189902']
Then maybe you shouldn't have posted Mohammedan oppositions to the Christian Faith.
[/quote]

A criticism of Paul is a "Mohammedan opposition" to the Christian faith? Didn't Paul basically argue that faith without deeds led to salvation, whereas Jesus argued that our deeds -- according to Jewish Law -- led to salvation ("The Good Samaritan"). Isn't that the heart of the argument that Paul contradicted Jesus Christ?

It's not an argument that Jesus wasn't God. But do you have to believe that Jesus was God to be a Christian? I'm still a little confused why Christians argue that Jesus was God. Wasn't he supposed to be the Jewish Messiah? Because the Jewish Messiah was not believed to be God. That's not a Jewish concept. They don't believe that any man or Messiah could ever be god. They believe that God is too different to ever be a man.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1291083930' post='2189941']
But do you have to believe that Jesus was God to be a Christian?[/quote]

Yes.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1291091371' post='2189963']
Yes.
[/quote]
floopy yeah

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291071460' post='2189891']
I was simply stating the fact that the Christian Faith and Islam are contradictory and cannot both be true.[/quote]

Islam and Christianity both teach that God is One. That He is omniscient, omnipotent, merciful and the Creator of all things etc. I think my problem is your treating these religions as if they are both giant monoliths that [i]have[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong, instead of the analyzing them as the intricate systems that they are.

[quote]Obviously, that blatantly contradicts what is written in the Gospels and taught by the Church.[/quote]

Does Islam contradict Christianity on every core tenet? No. Do Islam and Christianity agree on every core tenet? Of course not. They are two different religions right? I'm not in favor of some vapid, let's all hold hands syncretism that pretends there aren't any striking differences, but for the love of God and neighbor can't you respect the truth that is found in Islam and within the hearts of its adherents? I'm really OK with pointing the obvious differences between the two belief systems, but it should be done with respect, and using a broad brush to declare an entire religion absolutely false isn't what I call respectful.

[quote]
The Apostle Paul disagrees with you. He says that if Christ's resurrection is false then we are "among men most to be pitied" (or "most miserable," depending on the translation).
If the Gospel of Christ is wrong, then we've wasted our lives following a liar or a lunatic who cannot save us.
[/quote]

I agree, Christianity really hinges upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (which I think you are correct in that the Muslims do not accept this truth), and His Lordship etc etc. If all of that is not true then we're all really pathetic little mammals and we should be mocked accordingly.

[quote]If you think the Church is wrong in Her teachings on Christ and salvation, then why even be Catholic or Christian?[/quote]

I don't think he believes Church teaching to be "wrong." I think he's just being honest about his doubt and the sort of Cartesian anxiety that's threaded through modern Western thought. Kudos to you if you do not suffer from this phenomenon, but can you at least understand where he's coming from? I don't think a human mind can know with absolute certainty that God exists or any of His attributes should He really exist, that's where faith comes in. I don't understand it fully, it's not affirmed by my senses, I'm keenly aware of my own fallibility BUT through the mystery of faith I believe it anyway. This is not agnosticism IMO. To me it's just an honest human experience, and I think it's a similarity that all people of faith share (minus the schizophrenics trapped in their own alternate reality) so it sort of levels the playing-field in interfaith dialogue. To speak as though one has a monopoly on the Truth creates an impediment to understanding one another.

Of course maybe I am misinterpreting him.

The thing is this, you can sit here all day and tell me all the contradictions between Islam and I can offer a similarity for each difference. It's all about how ineffective I find your tone to be, and how I imagine many others to perceive your words. Let me draw an analogy if I may:

suppose you're browsing through a mostly protestant forum and you come across an anti-Catholic thread saying the Church is laden with corruption and conspiracy, that it's a false man-made religion, it is incompatible with true Christianity and Satan is really the mastermind behind Catholicism. All of these opinions are being stated in a rather acerbic manner.

OK, pretty common right? Now at best you would right them off as misinformed, perhaps slightly delusional, perhaps infected with pride, and dismiss what they say as a bunch of nonsense. At worst you may get uber pissed and tear into them with a less than charitable response.

Either way, the signals are crossed so bad nothing other than gagdnbjfladfjadl is communicated. However if someone were to respond with something like:

hey guyz, I'm not Catholic, but you really shouldn't make such rash statements about an entire religion like that. You know, Catholicism actually has a lot right about it. Plus it's kind of tactless to bash their religion like that seeing as Catholics might be offended that you're calling their Church the Whore of Babylon, you know taking the very crux of their identity and reducing it to nothing but "lies lies lies"

I would listen to that person. Communication between the two of us would probably be quite fruitful.

Now I don't know if there are any Muslims that peruse this site, but it [i]is[/i] the interwebs and thus a possibility. I'm only asking that you be aware of this and perhaps, not reduce Islam to nothing but lies. Much truth exists within Islam, although it contains some serious errors. I don't deny this and I wouldn't ask you to do that either. Don't build that strawman again. Just be cognizant of how your words may be perceived by others.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1291071460' post='2189891']
So, was Jesus right when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me," or not?

Is the Church and Scripture wrong in teaching that all salvation comes from Jesus Christ?
[/quote]
[b]What he said is the truth![/b] Firstly, whether or not Muslims can get to the Father is not what this debate is about. My interpretation of that saying is that if you have all the right things in your heart, then you have Jesus. Jesus is God, he can overcome any obstacle, not least ignorance of truth. What's in your mind is irrelevant Christianity is enacted by deeds not by thoughts and words. God became a man to show us how to live faith. He knows words are inadequate


[quote]Saving others' souls will not doom your own soul. Not sure what you're trying to say.
[/quote]
I was saying that if you are right and I am wrong. That is that I should just recite scripture and not give a damnn about Muslims rather than try to protect hateful and useless forum posts against whatever gentle ones there are, then I have doomed myself. If that's true then I have doomed myself in the hope of salvation for others.

Will you send me to Hell?

[quote]I never said anything here about terrorists or anti-American Imams.[/quote]
I was merely agreeing with you that such persons are jackasses and you have every right to despise them. I don't know what the percentages are but even if 99% of Muslims are jackasses, I am still precluded from derogatory remarks against Islam for the love of the 1%

[quote]I was simply stating the fact that the Christian Faith and Islam are contradictory and cannot both be true.
[/quote]
No you were not. you were insulting collectively Muslims. You are generalising! I'm asking you to restrict that to the 99% that deserve it for what they do to their own faith. I don't think that the CC can be 100% true and Islam 0%. We have to give some percentage of truth to Islam even if we are reluctant to admit some error in CC.

[quote]Keep on target, Porkins.[/quote]
That's true! How did you know? Not only that, I'm a silly Australian Kangaroo you great Gullah.


[quote]You're wrong.
Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was never crucified and never died, but was taken into heaven without dying like the prophet Enoch.
They also teach that Jesus is not truly the Son of God, and did not save us.
But don't take my word for it, just ask any Muslim.[/quote]
Yeah OK! I suppose there is a difference between remaining sentient after death and going to heaven compared to being resurrected but I'm yet to understand exactly what that difference is. But once again we are not to despise them for their errors, but to love them for their truths.

[quote]Obviously, that blatantly contradicts what is written in the Gospels and taught by the Church.
[/quote]
Once again I do not dispute the Gospels or the Church. I may only question some peoples interpretations.

[quote]The Apostle Paul disagrees with you. He says that if Christ's resurrection is false then we are "among men most to be pitied" (or "most miserable," depending on the translation).

If the Gospel of Christ is wrong, then we've wasted our lives following a liar or a lunatic who cannot save us.
[/quote]
Apostle Paul was maybe talking about something different. He was probably saying that if it is true then how much better are we than if it's not. I was saying that my faith has made my life so much more rewarding and enjoyable than if I were an atheist, that if I'm wrong, I won't have lost anything because I won't even become aware that I was wrong. I will have gotten the utmost out of life that I could not get otherwise because of the harshness of it.

[quote]Yes, play the old "pedophile priest" card!
Always proves the Church wrong every time!

The Church is infallible in Her teachings on Faith and Morals (which certainly include teachings on the nature of Christ, and salvation).

That does NOT mean individual churchmen (or even the Pope himself) cannot sin, even commit very heinous sins, nor are they preserved from making poor administrative decisions.
[/quote]
Yes it is a card, a trump card and no paedophilia wasn't a bad administrative decision. A picture is worth a thousand words and actions are worth a thousand pictures. Jesus taught not by words from a throne above, but by coming down here and teaching by example and actions. When the CC took no action against the priests and allowed them to continue their sins, they effectively said paedophilia is OK as long as you can hide it and not get caught. When they tried to cover it up and sweep it under the carpet, they taught that it is OK to lie about something to protect the Church and the faith. Numerous Priests and Catholics have been severely hurt by suspicion and accusation. As a human I am angry at those people who did that! As a Christian I must forgive them. We just have to bear our cross and pray that it never happens again.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote]If you think the Church is wrong in Her teachings on Christ and salvation, then why even be Catholic or Christian?[/quote]
It is the duty of all Catholics to try to help the Church correct errors even if we don't have the means.


[quote]And if you think the truth on religious matters is unknowable or unimportant, why waste time posting here?[/quote]


Truth is what we are about, it's what we wish to learn. I post here to learn truth and hopefully to teach.

Wasting my time! You have to be joking. I made two new friends on this thread. If I wrote nonsense all day for a year with Jesus in mind and soul, I could not repay what I obtained from this. I went to East Timor for a paltry 6 weeks to feed the hungry etc. but came back with a thousand times more than I could possibly ever hope to put in. A small child brought me to tears with a helpless innocent smile just saying thanks for being here.


You give the impression that you feel that I am attacking your faith. I'm not doing that! I understand and share your passion for the faith, but you must understand that the Church is vulnerable to criticisms and some things we must take on the chin and endeavour to do better.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1291083151' post='2189935']
It wouldn't have made much sense if he hadn't agreed with me.
[/quote]

I suppose so! Many people can't see outside the square they live in. Do jackasses wear blinders? If I have my facts correct, Catholic Wing lives in Pakistan and all the Muslims he encounters are worthy of despising. He has a good reason for his view of the world. It's a pity he hasn't encountered what Fr Robert McCulloch has. A small but significant strengthening in faith and friendship between Catholics and Muslims in the face of evil oppression from the dark side. Father thinks we in Oz are worse off because of our rising atheism.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1291083324' post='2189936']
Did you just call him fat?
[/quote]

He has to get some things right!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291098781' post='2189989']

I don't think he believes Church teaching to be "wrong." I think he's just being honest about his doubt and the sort of Cartesian anxiety that's threaded through modern Western thought. Kudos to you if you do not suffer from this phenomenon, but can you at least understand where he's coming from? I don't think a human mind can know with absolute certainty that God exists or any of His attributes should He really exist, that's where faith comes in. I don't understand it fully, it's not affirmed by my senses, I'm keenly aware of my own fallibility BUT through the mystery of faith I believe it anyway. This is not agnosticism IMO. To me it's just an honest human experience, and I think it's a similarity that all people of faith share (minus the schizophrenics trapped in their own alternate reality) so it sort of levels the playing-field in interfaith dialogue. To speak as though one has a monopoly on the Truth creates an impediment to understanding one another.

Of course maybe I am misinterpreting him.


[/quote]

It comes with great relief that I can make myself understood at least to some people. The rest of your post is also.

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1291083930' post='2189941']
A criticism of Paul is a "Mohammedan opposition" to the Christian faith? Didn't Paul basically argue that faith without deeds led to salvation, whereas Jesus argued that our deeds -- according to Jewish Law -- led to salvation ("The Good Samaritan"). Isn't that the heart of the argument that Paul contradicted Jesus Christ?

It's not an argument that Jesus wasn't God. But do you have to believe that Jesus was God to be a Christian? I'm still a little confused why Christians argue that Jesus was God. Wasn't he supposed to be the Jewish Messiah? Because the Jewish Messiah was not believed to be God. That's not a Jewish concept. They don't believe that any man or Messiah could ever be god. They believe that God is too different to ever be a man.
[/quote]
You quoted from a Muslim website.

Faith and deeds go hand in hand - they aren't opposed to one another.

Jesus did indeed claim to be God on multiple occasions, and claimed that He was the Way to salvation. See my previous quotes from John. In fact, "I AM," was the Jewish name of God, and Christ was condemned to death by the Jews because they saw His claim as blasphemous. In John 10:30, Jesus says, "[b]I and the Father are one,[/b]" at which the Jews picked up stones to stone him with from blasphemy. Previous to that, Jesus claimed to be the door to salvation.

And Paul's views on Christ and salvation were not contrary to those taught by Christ's apostles, as Paul was accepted into the Church by the Christ's Apostles after his conversion, and there was no conflict over the matter of Christ's divinity and saving power, which there surely would have been if Paul's teachings on this central matter were in fact contrary to Christ's. Read Acts of the Apostles.

Perhaps you should actually read the whole New Testament to find out what Christ and His Apostles taught, before you go to Muslim websites to get answers.
After all, Mohammed lived and wrote over 600 years after Christ, long after the Christian Gospels and Epistles were written.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1291098781' post='2189989']
Islam and Christianity both teach that God is One. That He is omniscient, omnipotent, merciful and the Creator of all things etc. I think my problem is your treating these religions as if they are both giant monoliths that [i]have[/i] to be either 100% right or 100% wrong, instead of the analyzing them as the intricate systems that they are.[/quote]
True Christian teaching (through the Magisterium of the Church) is indeed a "monolithic" body of teaching, not something you can pick and choose from as you please. Either you accept the Church's dogmatic teachings (especially those on the nature of Christ, and of salvation) or you don't.

And no Muslims believe that Christ is God and our Savior. If they believed that, they'd cease being Muslims and be Christian instead.

Are you saying the Christian Faith is right about some things and wrong about others, and likewise with Islam?

If so, perhaps you should stop calling yourself "Catholic."

[quote]Does Islam contradict Christianity on every core tenet? No. Do Islam and Christianity agree on every core tenet? Of course not. They are two different religions right? I'm not in favor of some vapid, let's all hold hands syncretism that pretends there aren't any striking differences, but for the love of God and neighbor can't you respect the truth that is found in Islam and within the hearts of its adherents? I'm really OK with pointing the obvious differences between the two belief systems, but it should be done with respect, and using a broad brush to declare an entire religion absolutely false isn't what I call respectful.[/quote]
What is true in Islam (One God, etc.) it took from the true religion of Christ, and added only falsehoods.

Mohammed was a false prophet, and Islam a false religion.


[quote]I agree, Christianity really hinges upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (which I think you are correct in that the Muslims do not accept this truth), and His Lordship etc etc. If all of that is not true then we're all really pathetic little mammals and we should be mocked accordingly.



I don't think he believes Church teaching to be "wrong." I think he's just being honest about his doubt and the sort of Cartesian anxiety that's threaded through modern Western thought. Kudos to you if you do not suffer from this phenomenon, but can you at least understand where he's coming from? I don't think a human mind can know with absolute certainty that God exists or any of His attributes should He really exist, that's where faith comes in. I don't understand it fully, it's not affirmed by my senses, I'm keenly aware of my own fallibility BUT through the mystery of faith I believe it anyway. This is not agnosticism IMO. To me it's just an honest human experience, and I think it's a similarity that all people of faith share (minus the schizophrenics trapped in their own alternate reality) so it sort of levels the playing-field in interfaith dialogue. To speak as though one has a monopoly on the Truth creates an impediment to understanding one another.

Of course maybe I am misinterpreting him.

The thing is this, you can sit here all day and tell me all the contradictions between Islam and I can offer a similarity for each difference. It's all about how ineffective I find your tone to be, and how I imagine many others to perceive your words. Let me draw an analogy if I may:

suppose you're browsing through a mostly protestant forum and you come across an anti-Catholic thread saying the Church is laden with corruption and conspiracy, that it's a false man-made religion, it is incompatible with true Christianity and Satan is really the mastermind behind Catholicism. All of these opinions are being stated in a rather acerbic manner.

OK, pretty common right? Now at best you would right them off as misinformed, perhaps slightly delusional, perhaps infected with pride, and dismiss what they say as a bunch of nonsense. At worst you may get uber pissed and tear into them with a less than charitable response.

Either way, the signals are crossed so bad nothing other than gagdnbjfladfjadl is communicated. However if someone were to respond with something like:

hey guyz, I'm not Catholic, but you really shouldn't make such rash statements about an entire religion like that. You know, Catholicism actually has a lot right about it. Plus it's kind of tactless to bash their religion like that seeing as Catholics might be offended that you're calling their Church the Whore of Babylon, you know taking the very crux of their identity and reducing it to nothing but "lies lies lies"

I would listen to that person. Communication between the two of us would probably be quite fruitful.

Now I don't know if there are any Muslims that peruse this site, but it [i]is[/i] the interwebs and thus a possibility. I'm only asking that you be aware of this and perhaps, not reduce Islam to nothing but lies. Much truth exists within Islam, although it contains some serious errors. I don't deny this and I wouldn't ask you to do that either. Don't build that strawman again. Just be cognizant of how your words may be perceived by others.[/quote]
Muslims are quite aware that Christianity and Islam are not compatible, and that we as Christians believe Islam to be a false religion, just as they believe the Christian Faith to be false.

And my statements on Islam on this site are not directed primarily at Muslims, but at Catholics making statements tending towards religious indifferentism, which is a serious error which ought to be corrected.

Denying or downplaying that fact (on a Catholic site!) will not convert anybody, but is merely being dishonest. Any Muslims are welcome to debate me on that.

I'll say it again: Islam is a false religion and Mohammed a false prophet.

I'm not going to pretend otherwise or kiss Islamic butt to avoid potentially offending Muslims or liberals with too-thin skins.

If anyone has a problem with that, they can kiss my [donkey].

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291165349' post='2190102']
[b]What he said is the truth![/b] Firstly, whether or not Muslims can get to the Father is not what this debate is about. My interpretation of that saying is that if you have all the right things in your heart, then you have Jesus. Jesus is God, he can overcome any obstacle, not least ignorance of truth. What's in your mind is irrelevant Christianity is enacted by deeds not by thoughts and words. God became a man to show us how to live faith. He knows words are inadequate[/quote]
As Catholics, we should teach truth, not foster ignorance.


[quote]I was saying that if you are right and I am wrong. That is that I should just recite scripture and not give a damnn about Muslims rather than try to protect hateful and useless forum posts against whatever gentle ones there are, then I have doomed myself. If that's true then I have doomed myself in the hope of salvation for others.

Will you send me to Hell?[/quote]
Strawman.

[quote]I was merely agreeing with you that such persons are jackasses and you have every right to despise them. I don't know what the percentages are but even if 99% of Muslims are jackasses, I am still precluded from derogatory remarks against Islam for the love of the 1%[/quote]
I was stating that the religion itself is objectively false and contrary to the teachings of the Christian Faith.

[quote]No you were not. you were insulting collectively Muslims. You are generalising! I'm asking you to restrict that to the 99% that deserve it for what they do to their own faith. I don't think that the CC can be 100% true and Islam 0%. We have to give some percentage of truth to Islam even if we are reluctant to admit some error in CC.
[/quote]
Either the Christian Faith is 100% true, or its false. Either Christ is God, or He's not. There's no middle ground - you can't play it both ways.




[quote]Yeah OK! I suppose there is a difference between remaining sentient after death and going to heaven compared to being resurrected but I'm yet to understand exactly what that difference is. But once again we are not to despise them for their errors, but to love them for their truths.


Once again I do not dispute the Gospels or the Church. I may only question some peoples interpretations.
[/quote]
Such as?

[quote]Apostle Paul was maybe talking about something different. He was probably saying that if it is true then how much better are we than if it's not. I was saying that my faith has made my life so much more rewarding and enjoyable than if I were an atheist, that if I'm wrong, I won't have lost anything because I won't even become aware that I was wrong. I will have gotten the utmost out of life that I could not get otherwise because of the harshness of it.


Yes it is a card, a trump card and no paedophilia wasn't a bad administrative decision. A picture is worth a thousand words and actions are worth a thousand pictures. Jesus taught not by words from a throne above, but by coming down here and teaching by example and actions. When the CC took no action against the priests and allowed them to continue their sins, they effectively said paedophilia is OK as long as you can hide it and not get caught. When they tried to cover it up and sweep it under the carpet, they taught that it is OK to lie about something to protect the Church and the faith. Numerous Priests and Catholics have been severely hurt by suspicion and accusation. As a human I am angry at those people who did that! As a Christian I must forgive them. We just have to bear our cross and pray that it never happens again.[/quote]
Pederasty is a grievous sin, as the Catholic Church clearly teaches. (Rape, sodomy, and all sex outside of marriage are all clearly condemned by the Church as mortal sins.)

No one is defending this horrible sin. But the sinfulness of Catholic clergy does not prove its moral and theological teachings false. Catholic clergy have also murdered, stolen, lied, committed adultery, and every other sin committed by fallen human beings. That does not mean the Catholic Church teaches that these actions are right.

You can't use the sins of Catholic priests as a loophole to justify denying theological dogmas of the Church.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Socrates