Who Was Paul?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1290641302' post='2189118']
If you feel like someone with a tag is saying things against church teaching, or being uncharitable generally, hit the report button. The Mods do listen to this stuff, but they aren't capable of reading every post on the forum.
[/quote]

Thank you ma'am. There has been [u]frequent[/u] posts & threads blatantly insulting collectively Muslims for quite a long time. If someone could be brought to Christianity or an extremist atrocity prevented or any peaceful outcome between Christians and Muslims could be achieved [b]then I would endorse it.[/b] However the only possible outcome that I can see is incitement of hatred from otherwise peaceful Muslims. The justification by Muslims, atheists, agnostics and others that Catholicism is hypocritical and therefore false. With the frequency of these posts/threads It's difficult to imagine the moderators not being aware of them. Also I question the derogatory use of the term 'Bleeding heart Catholic' thinking that it is one of our prime icons. And insulting someone's mother is not at all charitable and becoming a Church Militant. However I do feel that the people in question are aware of my displeasure and that I have dealt with them to my satisfaction in my responses. I do not feel the necessity to report them at this time. I will bear your advice in future. Once again many thanks.
Peace be with you.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290643689' post='2189129']
Thank you ma'am. There has been [u]frequent[/u] posts & threads blatantly insulting collectively Muslims for quite a long time. If someone could be brought to Christianity or an extremist atrocity prevented or any peaceful outcome between Christians and Muslims could be achieved [b]then I would endorse it.[/b] However the only possible outcome that I can see is incitement of hatred from otherwise peaceful Muslims. The justification by Muslims, atheists, agnostics and others that Catholicism is hypocritical and therefore false. With the frequency of these posts/threads It's difficult to imagine the moderators not being aware of them. Also I question the derogatory use of the term 'Bleeding heart Catholic' thinking that it is one of our prime icons. And insulting someone's mother is not at all charitable and becoming a Church Militant. However I do feel that the people in question are aware of my displeasure and that I have dealt with them to my satisfaction in my responses. I do not feel the necessity to report them at this time. I will bear your advice in future. Once again many thanks.
Peace be with you.
[/quote]
As one of those Bleeding Heart Catholics, I do understand. Haven't been called a pinko communist in a while though.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1290637717' post='2189100']
[tangent]lol I just looked up "vatican on islam" and got some FABULOUS conspiracy theories. I was unaware some people thought the Catholic Church created Islam [/tangent][/quote]
Yeah, the Jack Chick crowd accuses the Catholic Church of being behind pretty much every vile and antii-Christian group - the Nazi party, the Communists, you-name-it. [/tangent]

[quote]ANYWAY I believe[font="Arial"][size="2"] the Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

But it's not like I copied or pasted that from some official source or anything that was all cooked up in my non-Catholic heretical mind [/quote]
There's a difference between having respect for Muslim people, and their religion, which is a false, apostate, man-made religion, which denies many key Christian dogmas, and demands that Christians "convert" to accept their falsehoods.

There's no point in pretending, as a Christian, that a man-made religion directly contrary to Christianity is also a true religion.
Not hate, simple logic.

All that is true or good in Islam was taken directly from Christianity. Islam added nothing positive, it only denied Christian truths and added falsehoods.

You could make the same statement about the Mormons, or any number of cults claiming to be the true heir to the religion of Abraham, but it does not make them any less false or apostate.

[quote]Knowledge of Divine truth does not give anyone the right to be arrogant, and honestly the underlying hostility in your posts just seems like fear to me. Not intended as an insult. Just observation. Extremist Islamists could take what you say and easily use it as propaganda and Muslims of goodwill would probably just look at what you say and think you're an arrogant jackass or feel hurt. I ask you what good comes from speaking the way you do? You're not revolutionary or groundbreaking when you say Islam is evil. Yes I know in academia for example there is sometimes a bit of unwarranted sympathy for Islam, but can't you also see that in the western world Muslims (most of which are probably not mass-murdering psychopaths) are often demonized? And unfairly so.
[/quote]
I never claimed to be in the least bit revolutionary or groundbreaking in my observations. And I honestly don't care much what you or anyone else in the phatmass peanut gallery thinks of me personally. I'm a jackass as charged.

However, I never said anything here about "mass-murdering psychopaths," nor even mentioned Islamic terrorism or various historic and continuing Islamic atrocities.
You can bicker all day and all night about whether or not the actions of violent "extremists" represent "true Islam," (whatever that means) - as indeed has been done endlessly on this site in the past.

However, as Islam is a man-made religion which no true divine authority, it's ultimately all irrelevant and meaningless.

The tenants of Islam remain contrary to the Christian Faith, whether particular Muslims happen to be mass-murdering psychopaths, or pacifists who wouldn't hurt a flea.


[quote][quote]Shouldn't we be trying to draw more non-Christians into the flock? Or does that make me too much of a bleeding-heart for your taste? it's really possible.
[/size][/font][/quote][/quote]

This is a Catholic site, and we should be teaching Catholic truth - not pretending as though falsehood is true.

Talking as though Islam and Christianity are not contradictory, and somehow really teach the same thing, won't draw any non-Christians into the flock; it's simply being intellectually dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of Christians and Muslims alike.
Muslims are well aware that that the doctrines of Christianity and Islam are contradictory and opposed to one another. Nothing will be accomplished by us pretending otherwise.

However, when those professing to believe the Catholic Faith spout things like how Islam is also a true religion, and merely a "different way of worshiping God," such errors should be corrected.


[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290638825' post='2189106']
Much wisdom in the verse 'Do not judge and be not judged.'
[/quote]
We shouldn't rashly judge the souls of others, but we can indeed (and should) judge beliefs and ideas to be true or false.

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290639360' post='2189112']
They really are portrayed as demonic but it is seriously the fault of the extremists. I have multiple Muslim friends and they are amazing and welcoming. They hate the extremists just as much as the Western world does because they are giving Muslims a bad name. What is so wrong about them anyway? The average Muslim that wants to worship ONE GOD? What's so wrong with that? People are just finding it too easy to hate. Jesus would be terribly ashamed.
[/quote]
It's not enough to simply worship one God. Jesus would try to correct the errors of the Muslims and bring them to accept Him as God and Savior (which Islam denies).

There's a lot wrong with a post-Christian religion that denies the divinity and saving mission of Jesus Christ, and demands that Christians convert to Islam.

As Christians it is our duty to promote truth, not falsehood.

Calling a false religion a false religion is not hate, all pc nonsense to the contrary.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1290645938' post='2189131']
As one of those Bleeding Heart Catholics, I do understand. Haven't been called a pinko communist in a while though.
[/quote]
Whatever, you pinko communist.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290643689' post='2189129']
Thank you ma'am. There has been [u]frequent[/u] posts & threads blatantly insulting collectively Muslims for quite a long time...
[/quote]
There have been an equal number of posts equating statements about the religion with statements about the religion's adherents.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290803056' post='2189407']
Whatever, you pinko communist.



[/quote]
Asal

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290802656' post='2189403']
We shouldn't rashly judge the souls of others, but we can indeed (and should) judge beliefs and ideas to be true or false.

[/quote]
You're saying that because you assume you hold teh truth, but how do we know what's true and what's false. The only thing you can be absolutely sure of is that your mind exists or else we couldn't be having this discussion. Anything else could be an illusion! A few posts ago I told Paddington that I have to give a percentage of doubt to my faith because I have no way of knowing 100% what is truth and that I'm not suffering some kind of delusion. I believe wholeheartedly in Christian teachings but more out of gut feeling, discipline, statistics and desire than factual knowledge it's my [i]free choice[/i]. I only wish I could prove what you say, then I could prove to every atheist and whatever the real faith. How do I know that the God I sense and love is not really Allah and I am mistakenly calling him Jesus and he doesn't mind because Jesus was his beloved prophet and therefore he still loves me and lets me know it?
My wife and I have some agnostic friends, recently a young couple have come into our lives, He is catholic and she is going through RCIA of which I'm a Catechist. I can see our Agnostic friends are becoming agnostic about their agnosticism. Should I take your advice and adapt what you said about Muslims to Agnostics. I'm pretty sure our friends will [/unfriend] Some of our enquirer/catechumens come from atheist backgrounds so I'll probably also end up [/uncatechist]
Pinko communist donkey.
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44965000/jpg/_44965907_donkey_pa466.jpg[/img]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290944119' post='2189646']
You're saying that because you assume you hold teh truth, but how do we know what's true and what's false. The only thing you can be absolutely sure of is that your mind exists or else we couldn't be having this discussion. Anything else could be an illusion! A few posts ago I told Paddington that I have to give a percentage of doubt to my faith because I have no way of knowing 100% what is truth and that I'm not suffering some kind of delusion. I believe wholeheartedly in Christian teachings but more out of gut feeling, discipline, statistics and desire than factual knowledge it's my [i]free choice[/i]. I only wish I could prove what you say, then I could prove to every atheist and whatever the real faith. How do I know that the God I sense and love is not really Allah and I am mistakenly calling him Jesus and he doesn't mind because Jesus was his beloved prophet and therefore he still loves me and lets me know it?
My wife and I have some agnostic friends, recently a young couple have come into our lives, He is catholic and she is going through RCIA of which I'm a Catechist. I can see our Agnostic friends are becoming agnostic about their agnosticism. Should I take your advice and adapt what you said about Muslims to Agnostics. I'm pretty sure our friends will [/unfriend] Some of our enquirer/catechumens come from atheist backgrounds so I'll probably also end up [/uncatechist]
Pinko communist donkey.
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44965000/jpg/_44965907_donkey_pa466.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
As followers of Christ, we are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ, not agnosticism or religious indifferentism.

We are saved not by agnosticism, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, "[b]I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.[/b]" (John 14:6)

Islam denies salvation by Christ, and is therefore directly contrary to the Christian Faith.

As the St. Paul the Apostle warned us: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema." (Galatians 1:8-9)

Mohammed preached a false "gospel" contrary that of Christ, and is therefore anathema.

If the Gospel of Christ is false, the Apostle tells us, "we among men are most to be pitied."

"Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. 14 And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he has raised up Christ, whom he has not raised up, if the dead rise not again. 16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. 17[b] And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain: for you are yet in your sins.[/b] 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Corinthians 15:12-19)

Islam explicitly denies the resurrection of Christ, and if they are right, then our Faith is in vain.

You can't have it both ways.

I suppose you can now add St. Paul to your list of jackasses.

[quote]How do I know that the God I sense and love is not really Allah and I am mistakenly calling him Jesus and he doesn't mind because Jesus was his beloved prophet and therefore he still loves me and lets me know it?[/quote]
That would make Jesus Christ and the Church He founded to be liars. Your statement, while no doubt politically correct, is complete nonsense. God does not contradict Himself.

Either the Gospel of Christ is real, or we're wasting our time.

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290469888' post='2188675']
To be honest, a Muslim scholar named Zakir Naik knows the bible better than anyone I know and has much of the bible memorised. He even won a debate against a Christian scholar. It's on youtube for free viewing. Muslims know the bible VERY well.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PcKZnmBnQVE[/url]
[/quote]

A muslim scholar Zakir Naik........................
I know him very well and he is very famous here around us............
There is nothing reality that he knows Christianity very well. Lot of time he code wrong Bible verses even you cant see these verses exists in the Bible. And which debates he has on the tv shows............. thousands time he practices for it and then he made video............. he is doing all things for money........ he just want to get attraction of people and get money..........
Even he often speaks against the Islam too. He is not even Islamic Scholar............
He is in favor of Usama Bin Laden and he is also under the blasphemy Law.
Watch video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0PzyWiYai4&feature=related

I dont think he knows Bible very well.
And about Muslims better knows about Bible.........again i am not agree.......... they read Bible but they just try to search our mistakes in the Bible. My dear mostly muslims are not sincere with us. Dont believe on them.............. i have great and great experiences with them.

[Winchester]

Catholic Wing, haven't you heard? Objective reality is passe. And experience only counts when it upgirds syncretism.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Winchester

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290468218' post='2188670']
Obviously not. Start by reading the four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, and the absurdity of the Islamic claims will be apparent. Muslims don't read the Bible, and they're hoping you won't either.

Where exactly does St. Paul contradict Jesus?
[/quote]

I'll try to get to this question later when I have a little more time. I didn't intend to get a debate going about the Muslims.

[Gregorius]

To be sure, the Bible is the most historically accurate depiction of Jesus' teachings we have. As has already been stated, no real evidence has yet been given by the Muslims to contradict that claim, and thus cannot be seen as reliable witnesses to the teachings of Christ.
It is also important to note that the Bible was compiled and promulgated by the Catholic Church, and was thus meant to be interpreted by the same. As such the Church sees no contradiction between Christ and the Apostle Paul and niether should any of Her members.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290972747' post='2189699']
As followers of Christ, we are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ, not agnosticism or religious indifferentism.
[/quote]
Yes that's true I didn't say it wasn't. But this is not about what, it's about how. We used to have an old preacher stand on the street corner mumbling scripture. [b]Nobody[/b] took any notice, you couldn't understand him anyhow. He was no doubt trying to obey the scripture. 'blessed is he who reads aloud the words of God.' or something to that effect, my memories fading. There is a deeper meaning! It's no use being vocal and loud if no-one hears you. Reading aloud means doing it in such a way as to make people hear [u]and take notice[/u]. eg [i]Do you hear me bro.?[/i] Besides that spruiking scripture to be blessed is a selfish act. The command is really telling us that we must get the true message across so that it will be effective. And we should have the salvation of others in mind not ourselves.

[quote]We are saved not by agnosticism, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, "[b]I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.[/b]" (John 14:6)
[/quote]
I sometimes refer to scripture as being written by Jesus. I don't mean he actually put pen to paper, I mean he wrote them by his actions. There is a deep meaning in this also. It is not enough to know scripture we have to actually live it, just as Jesus did. I write things and people constantly misunderstand. It's not me at fault, Winchester proof reads everything I write and points out my errors. It's language that is inadequate, that's why we have to test scripture by living it and then we will discover what it means. This is why it is possible to point out contradictions in the Bible.

[quote]
Islam denies salvation by Christ, and is therefore directly contrary to the Christian Faith.[/quote]
Jesus said "love your God and your neighbour and you will live." Some Muslims love God, and love their neighbours, they give shelter to Christians who are being persecuted by Extremist Muslims who are really serving the devil satan. I'm a sinner also and possibly at the bottom of the junk pile, but Jesus statement also gives me the prospect of eternal life. No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for another. What if I'm risking breaking God's law and dooming myself for the prospect of saving other souls?

[quote]As the St. Paul the Apostle warned us: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema." (Galatians 1:8-9)

Mohammed preached a false "gospel" contrary that of Christ, and is therefore anathema.

If the Gospel of Christ is false, the Apostle tells us, "we among men are most to be pitied."
[/quote]
Have you actually taken this up with St Paul and Mohammed, to see if this is what they are about? I don't care much for Islamic terrorists, nor do I care much for Muslim Imams that teach children to hate Jews and Americans. L_D showed us some videos that pointed out how stupid some Imams can be, but then I've seen some pretty stupid priests. I have to respect the cloth, I don't have to like the man! I care and love Muslims who respect my faith as I respect theirs and offer the hand of friendship. Whether or not my actions bring them to Jesus is purely up to the will of the Spirit. As a catechist we don't profess to bring people to Christ. It is the Spirit that brings them, we just guide them and make them welcome. our approach to this is as being bleeding heart Catholics.

[quote]"Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. 14 And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he has raised up Christ, whom he has not raised up, if the dead rise not again. 16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. 17[b] And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain: for you are yet in your sins.[/b] 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Corinthians 15:12-19)

Islam explicitly denies the resurrection of Christ, and if they are right, then our Faith is in vain.
[/quote]
Well I don't understand all this. Muslims believe in the resurrection and they believe Jesus was a prophet, so they must believe he was resurrected. Also we maintain that if we are wrong we will have lost nothing but if unbelievers are wrong they have lost eternal life. There is no actual pass mark for this. Once again it is the will that counts. Remember the words you say at confession. 'Paul's letter to the Romans 7:15-18, 24-25 ...I do not act as I mean to, but do the things I hate ...it is not myself acting, but the sin which lives in me....

[quote]I suppose you can now add St. Paul to your list of jackasses.[/quote]
Don't be a Reyb and change what I've written. Even for him salvation is possible because of the will to love God and those he wishes to lead to God. Even though he is mistaken in his interpretations he has it right in his heart.

[quote]That would make Jesus Christ and the Church He founded to be liars. Your statement, while no doubt politically correct, is complete nonsense. God does not contradict Himself.
[/quote]
God doesn't contradict himself, the men who quote him do!

[quote]Either the Gospel of Christ is real, or we're wasting our time.[/quote]
If the gospel of Christ is wrong I will have lost nothing!

Paedophilia in the Church is microscopic! Probably and hopefully proportionately less than any other [b]generalised group.[/b] However hundred of victims will testify that when the Church made a decision not to put a stop to it and to try to hide their indiscretions, [b]they made a very grave error. [/b]If Credibility wasn't lost through numerous other bad decisions throughout 2000 years of history then it has now. The Church cannot claim to be infallible in everything it does or teaches! The statement that Hell will not prevail over it, refers to the ultimate destination. It will succeed in it's intended purpose of God. In the meantime it will continue to recognise error and to change and grow nearer to God, just as we do in it's image.

BTW What's a pinko communist?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290997674' post='2189785']
Catholic Wing, haven't you heard? Objective reality is passe. And experience only counts when it upgirds syncretism.
[/quote]

You're only saying that because he agrees with you. You haven't got blond hair in one eye have you? Hey I know this deal where you can make lots of money interested?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1291000992' post='2189798']
Yes that's true I didn't say it wasn't. But this is not about what, it's about how. We used to have an old preacher stand on the street corner mumbling scripture. [b]Nobody[/b] took any notice, you couldn't understand him anyhow. He was no doubt trying to obey the scripture. 'blessed is he who reads aloud the words of God.' or something to that effect, my memories fading. There is a deeper meaning! It's no use being vocal and loud if no-one hears you. Reading aloud means doing it in such a way as to make people hear [u]and take notice[/u]. eg [i]Do you hear me bro.?[/i] Besides that spruiking scripture to be blessed is a selfish act. The command is really telling us that we must get the true message across so that it will be effective. And we should have the salvation of others in mind not ourselves.


I sometimes refer to scripture as being written by Jesus. I don't mean he actually put pen to paper, I mean he wrote them by his actions. There is a deep meaning in this also. It is not enough to know scripture we have to actually live it, just as Jesus did. I write things and people constantly misunderstand. It's not me at fault, Winchester proof reads everything I write and points out my errors. It's language that is inadequate, that's why we have to test scripture by living it and then we will discover what it means. This is why it is possible to point out contradictions in the Bible. [/quote]
So, was Jesus right when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me," or not?

Is the Church and Scripture wrong in teaching that all salvation comes from Jesus Christ?


[quote]Jesus said "love your God and your neighbour and you will live." Some Muslims love God, and love their neighbours, they give shelter to Christians who are being persecuted by Extremist Muslims who are really serving the devil satan. I'm a sinner also and possibly at the bottom of the junk pile, but Jesus statement also gives me the prospect of eternal life. No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for another. What if I'm risking breaking God's law and dooming myself for the prospect of saving other souls? [/quote]
Saving others' souls will not doom your own soul. Not sure what you're trying to say.

[quote]Have you actually taken this up with St Paul and Mohammed, to see if this is what they are about? I don't care much for Islamic terrorists, nor do I care much for Muslim Imams that teach children to hate Jews and Americans. L_D showed us some videos that pointed out how stupid some Imams can be, but then I've seen some pretty stupid priests. I have to respect the cloth, I don't have to like the man! I care and love Muslims who respect my faith as I respect theirs and offer the hand of friendship. Whether or not my actions bring them to Jesus is purely up to the will of the Spirit. As a catechist we don't profess to bring people to Christ. It is the Spirit that brings them, we just guide them and make them welcome. our approach to this is as being bleeding heart Catholics.
[/quote]
I never said anything here about terrorists or anti-American Imams.

I was simply stating the fact that the Christian Faith and Islam are contradictory and cannot both be true.

Keep on target, Porkins.


[quote]Well I don't understand all this. Muslims believe in the resurrection and they believe Jesus was a prophet, so they must believe he was resurrected. Also we maintain that if we are wrong we will have lost nothing but if unbelievers are wrong they have lost eternal life. There is no actual pass mark for this. Once again it is the will that counts. Remember the words you say at confession. 'Paul's letter to the Romans 7:15-18, 24-25 ...I do not act as I mean to, but do the things I hate ...it is not myself acting, but the sin which lives in me....[/quote]
You're wrong.
Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was never crucified and never died, but was taken into heaven without dying like the prophet Enoch.
They also teach that Jesus is not truly the Son of God, and did not save us.
But don't take my word for it, just ask any Muslim.

Obviously, that blatantly contradicts what is written in the Gospels and taught by the Church.

[quote] . . .

If the gospel of Christ is wrong I will have lost nothing![/quote]
The Apostle Paul disagrees with you. He says that if Christ's resurrection is false then we are "among men most to be pitied" (or "most miserable," depending on the translation).

If the Gospel of Christ is wrong, then we've wasted our lives following a liar or a lunatic who cannot save us.

[quote]Paedophilia in the Church is microscopic! Probably and hopefully proportionately less than any other [b]generalised group.[/b] However hundred of victims will testify that when the Church made a decision not to put a stop to it and to try to hide their indiscretions, [b]they made a very grave error. [/b]If Credibility wasn't lost through numerous other bad decisions throughout 2000 years of history then it has now. The Church cannot claim to be infallible in everything it does or teaches! The statement that Hell will not prevail over it, refers to the ultimate destination. It will succeed in it's intended purpose of God. In the meantime it will continue to recognise error and to change and grow nearer to God, just as we do in it's image.
[/quote]
Yes, play the old "pedophile priest" card!
Always proves the Church wrong every time!

The Church is infallible in Her teachings on Faith and Morals (which certainly include teachings on the nature of Christ, and salvation).

That does NOT mean individual churchmen (or even the Pope himself) cannot sin, even commit very heinous sins, nor are they preserved from making poor administrative decisions.

If you think the Church is wrong in Her teachings on Christ and salvation, then why even be Catholic or Christian?

And if you think the truth on religious matters is unknowable or unimportant, why waste time posting here?

[quote]BTW What's a pinko communist?[/quote]
Ask Catherine.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Socrates