Who Was Paul?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290467910' post='2188666']
Right. They haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to talking about what Jesus "actually" said, unless they have a secret, extra-Biblical source of what He said and did.

It is an act of charity to tell someone what he believes is a lie, when it is. Either their belief system is based on a lying person's teachings, an insane person's teachings, or it is a religion founded by God Himself. Catholics may not believe the last explanation. It is not an act of disrespect to say any of those things.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I didn't say it wasn't! I think Muslims would be well aware that we disagree with them. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that we would therefore believe that what they believed are untruths. And we can tell them that, as long as we do it lovingly and diplomatically.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290466245' post='2188662']
You trust the Mohammedans to have a better understanding of Christianity than the Christians??

They deny the truth of much of the Gosples, including Christ's death and resurrection.
[/quote]

To be honest, a Muslim scholar named Zakir Naik knows the bible better than anyone I know and has much of the bible memorised. He even won a debate against a Christian scholar. It's on youtube for free viewing. Muslims know the bible VERY well.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PcKZnmBnQVE[/url]

Edited November 22, 2010 by Hinter dem Horizont

[john654]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290465371' post='2188655']
This is true! The use of the initials PBUH after every reference to Jesus indicates that the text is from an Islamic site. Muslims hold that Jesus was only a prophet. They use the PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) after every prophet except Mohammed after which they use the initials SAW. these are terms of respect and endearment. Muslims are our neighbours that we must love as ourselves and they worship the same God, but sadly they seem to have got their facts badly misconstrued.
[/quote]

You say, "and they worship the same God". I may open a can of worms, but, I reject their god. I don't know him. Their god is not the God of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament. They are a false man made religion. Their god is mean and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

John

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='john654' timestamp='1290470446' post='2188676']
You say, "and they worship the same God". I may open a can of worms, but, I reject their god. I don't know him. Their god is not the God of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament. They are a false man made religion. Their god is mean and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

John
[/quote]

I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Hinter dem Horizont

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290471666' post='2188688']
I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.
[/quote]

Just like the Book of Mormon.

~Sternhauser

[john654]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290471666' post='2188688']
I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.
[/quote]

Right, friend, read the "Koran" to find out God The Father.

Jesus IS God,
John

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='john654' timestamp='1290473744' post='2188695']
Right, friend, read the "Koran" to find out God The Father.

Jesus IS God,
John



[/quote]

I didn't say for YOU to find Him in there. But for those that truly believe it is His word, then so be it. Until you read it and understand, then don't mock it.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='john654' timestamp='1290470446' post='2188676']
You say, "and they worship the same God". I may open a can of worms, but, I reject their god. I don't know him. Their god is not the God of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament. They are a false man made religion. Their god is mean and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

John
[/quote]
No can of worms, we've had these discussions numerous times. You can believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it true. I claim that there is no true atheist because there is no way that anyone can know for sure that there is no God. The worst you can be is agnostic. There is also no way that you can know that our God is not their God. Besides the Vatican disagrees with you.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1982/february/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19820214_musulmani-nigeria_en.html"]Vatican website[/url]
[font="Times"] [/font][quote][font="Times"][size="3"]2. All of us, Christians and Muslims, live under the sun of the one merciful God. [/size][/font][/quote]
Who do you think I should believe the Vatican or you. Pretty easy decision to make don't you think.

[quote name='john654' timestamp='1290473744' post='2188695']
Right, friend, read the "Koran" to find out God The Father.

Jesus IS God,
John



[/quote]

Jesus name wasn't Jesus and Gods name wasn't God. Just because we have a different name doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the same being. It's whats in your heart (Col) that makes it the same or different.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290482339' post='2188733']
The worst you can be is agnostic. [/quote]

You're EDIT.

(Try having a cartoon bear for a handle sometime. It's not too different from "Catholic guilt" I guess. And sorry. You were being something, but that isn't to say you are something. You're a nice guy.)

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290482339' post='2188733']There is also no way that you can know that our God is not their God. [/quote]

Good to see you have some Agnostic in you. Perhaps you aren't worse than Islamic beheaders, etc.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Paddington

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Paddington' timestamp='1290494537' post='2188753']
You're EDIT.

(Try having a cartoon bear for a handle sometime. It's not too different from "Catholic guilt" I guess. And sorry. You were being something, but that isn't to say you are something. You're a nice guy.)
[/quote]
Not sure what you're saying. Admittedly the use of the word 'worst' was possibly a bad choice. I don't consider myself the smartest of people and I'm certainly not the most educated. I would barely pass high school. But to make things clear I have atheist? agnostic friends whom I have a great deal of love and respect for. In no way would I blame people for not believing, it's a cruel and hostile world. I just hope and pray that people keep there minds open (Agnostic). I suppose the reverse is also true. There is no way that I can be 100% sure there is a God. I have to leave open the small possibility that I'm delusional. But then I have nothing to lose, an atheist has everything to lose.

[quote]Good to see you have some Agnostic in you. Perhaps you aren't worse than Islamic beheaders, etc.[/quote]

Once again I do not know what you mean. I have no agnosticism apart from natural anxiety. And I hope you're not generalising as people seem to be fond of doing. Just because a few catholic priests fall victim to the temptation of the devil and engage in the despicable act of paedophilia doesn't mean that all Catholics are paedophiles. And it may surprise some people but those who say that they serve Islam by cutting of the heads of innocent Christian children are not really Muslims. There purpose is to serve the devil by inciting hatred.
Peace be with you Paddington.
PS what brings you to Phatmass?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Paddington]

Mark,

Well, I called you a name and then felt bad. The bear had something to do with feeling bad. I compared that to Catholic guilt in case that was the part where you weren't sure what I was saying.

I think I've seen the "Agnosticism is the worst" thing before with different words. It bothers me, because it doesn't make any sense to say that a lack of beliefs is worse than objectively bad beliefs such as beheading, wilding or KKK ideas.

The topic of beheading must be considered only with the crime that leads to it, but I pictured Islamic State beheading. How many people believe it? I don't know, but if the topic is broadened to intolerant Islamic State religion in general, the number is definitely high - too high for me to be comfortable comparing it to pedophilia in priests.

I came on Phatmass 4 years ago, because of my interest in Christianity and because I had the free time and internet access to do so due to work.

Peace back,
Paddington

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Paddington' timestamp='1290511536' post='2188762']
Mark,

I think I've seen the "Agnosticism is the worst" thing before with different words. It bothers me, because it doesn't make any sense to say that a lack of beliefs is worse than objectively bad beliefs such as beheading, wilding or KKK ideas.
[/quote]
No, I didn't mean to imply that agnosticism is bad. It certainly would be much better than a religion spruiking or executing hatred. I meant from my view it is not as good as good faith. Some agnostics are quite comfortable with their lack of belief and I would be the last to criticise what are often really nice people.

[quote]The topic of beheading must be considered only with the crime that leads to it, but I pictured Islamic State beheading. How many people believe it? I don't know, but if the topic is broadened to intolerant Islamic State religion in general, the number is definitely high - too high for me to be comfortable comparing it to pedophilia in priests.[/quote]

Paedophilia is certainly small in Catholicism. It's the fact that the Church took no positive action and tried to hide it, that has caused untold damage both to victims and the Church as a whole and made it a major bad reflection on Christianity. Certainly it's a bad comparison as far as proportions to extremism in Islam. But then that's probably one of the reasons that I'm a Catholic because it is closer to truth than anything else. (My view)
Thanks for your tolerant understanding attitude. It is much better to ask for an explanation rather than remain in silent anger at what is often misunderstanding. It would be a better world if more people took that attitude.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[john654]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290474245' post='2188699']
I didn't say for YOU to find Him in there. But for those that truly believe it is His word, then so be it. Until you read it and understand, then don't mock it.
[/quote]



No time for a moral relativist.

John

[Winchester]

This is the mindset that elected Jerry Brown.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290471666' post='2188688']
I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.
[/quote]
The problem is that Islam rejects Christ as God. No other objection is necessary.