Pope B16 & The New Condom Controversy

[MithLuin]

Oh brother.

I hate media storms.

On one level, the question is ridiculous. 'If a john has sex with a prostitute, is it immoral for them to use condoms while doing so?' Well, gee, let's see....we're talking about [i]prostitution[/i], so yeah that's immoral, with or without the condom!

Ditto for committing adultery or fornication, or engaging in homosexual behavior.

If you're freely choosing to engage in immoral sexual behavior, whether or not you use condoms while doing so is beside the point. [i]Not[/i] using a condom wouldn't make the action moral. Using a condom 'at least' shows a willingness to avoid harming the other person in one way. Pretty faint praise, there, because it's still [i]damning[/i].

What I hate is this attitude of 'the pope said it's okay to use condoms.' Um, no he didn't. He said that concern for another's welfare was a good sign.

The thorniest question in all of this is....what if one spouse is HIV+ and the other is HIV-? Obviously, endangering the healthy spouse's life intentionally would be gravely wrong, so normal marital relations would become sinful. Marital relations using a condom would also be sinful (because of birth control), but 'at least' there is some concern for the spouse's life there. Abstaining from sexual relations would be the moral choice. Catholic teaching on that point is unlikely to change.

For any sexual relationship outside of marriage, Catholic teaching has been crystal clear for ages: don't do it, it's a sin. So if people actually listened to that...maybe we'd see a reduction in the spread of AIDS?

[kafka]

this controversy the media manufactured will go a long way in causing confusion among Catholics as well as spreading errors. People will use the misrepresentations to weaken the Church's teaching against contraception and against sexual sins. Catholic sexual ethics and teachings is one of the main dividing lines and tests of true faith in modern times. And right now there is a poor understanding among some prominent Catholics, priests, religious, teachers, of Catholic sexual ethics, and this will only add fuel to the fire.

There is devilry here. Curse the Mass Media and all the harm they do. These arrogant people who speak in high places, with no care for truth, no affection of the heart, they are consumed with greed, they have built up an artifical power which God will eventually destroy. They set themselves up as gods deciding right from wrong, arbiters of truth in any field, gluttons of information, spreaders of lies, deceits, and slander, heralds of sinful secular society cut off from God, leaders of those who go astray:

Psalm
{72:6} Therefore, arrogance has held on to them. They have been covered with their iniquity and impiety.
{72:7} Their iniquity has proceeded, as if from fat. They have parted from the affection of the heart.
{72:8} They have thought and spoken wickedness. They have spoken iniquity in high places.
{72:9} They have set their mouth against heaven, and their tongue has traversed the earth.
{72:10} Therefore, my people will be converted here, and fullness of days will be found in them.
{72:11} And they said, “How would God know?” and, “Isn’t there knowledge in high places?”
{72:12} Behold, these are sinners, and, abounding in this age, they have obtained riches.

1 Corinthians
{15:32} If, according to man, I fought with the beasts at Ephesus, how would that benefit me, if the dead do not rise again? “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die.”
{15:33} Do not be led astray. Evil communication corrupts good morals.
{15:34} Be vigilant, you just ones, and do not be willing to sin. For certain persons have an ignorance of God. I say this to you with respect.

Edited November 24, 2010 by kafka

[kafka]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1290573488' post='2188986']
Oh brother.

I hate media storms.

On one level, the question is ridiculous. 'If a john has sex with a prostitute, is it immoral for them to use condoms while doing so?' Well, gee, let's see....we're talking about [i]prostitution[/i], so yeah that's immoral, with or without the condom!

Ditto for committing adultery or fornication, or engaging in homosexual behavior.

If you're freely choosing to engage in immoral sexual behavior, whether or not you use condoms while doing so is beside the point. [i]Not[/i] using a condom wouldn't make the action moral. Using a condom 'at least' shows a willingness to avoid harming the other person in one way. Pretty faint praise, there, because it's still [i]damning[/i].

What I hate is this attitude of 'the pope said it's okay to use condoms.' Um, no he didn't. He said that concern for another's welfare was a good sign.

The thorniest question in all of this is....what if one spouse is HIV+ and the other is HIV-? Obviously, endangering the healthy spouse's life intentionally would be gravely wrong, so normal marital relations would become sinful. Marital relations using a condom would also be sinful (because of birth control), but 'at least' there is some concern for the spouse's life there. Abstaining from sexual relations would be the moral choice. Catholic teaching on that point is unlikely to change.

For any sexual relationship outside of marriage, Catholic teaching has been crystal clear for ages: don't do it, it's a sin. So if people actually listened to that...maybe we'd see a reduction in the spread of AIDS?
[/quote]
good post. I agree.

maybe AIDS is God's punishment for sexual sins of modern times.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1290573488' post='2188986']
Oh brother.

I hate media storms.

On one level, the question is ridiculous. 'If a john has sex with a prostitute, is it immoral for them to use condoms while doing so?' Well, gee, let's see....we're talking about [i]prostitution[/i], so yeah that's immoral, with or without the condom!

Ditto for committing adultery or fornication, or engaging in homosexual behavior.

If you're freely choosing to engage in immoral sexual behavior, whether or not you use condoms while doing so is beside the point. [i]Not[/i] using a condom wouldn't make the action moral. Using a condom 'at least' shows a willingness to avoid harming the other person in one way. Pretty faint praise, there, because it's still [i]damning[/i].

What I hate is this attitude of 'the pope said it's okay to use condoms.' Um, no he didn't. He said that concern for another's welfare was a good sign.

The thorniest question in all of this is....what if one spouse is HIV+ and the other is HIV-? Obviously, endangering the healthy spouse's life intentionally would be gravely wrong, so normal marital relations would become sinful. Marital relations using a condom would also be sinful (because of birth control), but 'at least' there is some concern for the spouse's life there. Abstaining from sexual relations would be the moral choice. Catholic teaching on that point is unlikely to change.

For any sexual relationship outside of marriage, Catholic teaching has been crystal clear for ages: don't do it, it's a sin. So if people actually listened to that...maybe we'd see a reduction in the spread of AIDS?
[/quote]
Good post

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1290573836' post='2188987']
this controversy the media manufactured will go a long way in causing confusion among Catholics as well as spreading errors. People will use the misrepresentations to weaken the Church's teaching against contraception and against sexual sins. Catholic sexual ethics and teachings is one of the main dividing lines and tests of true faith in modern times. And right now there is a poor understanding among some prominent Catholics, priests, religious, teachers, of Catholic sexual ethics, and this will only add fuel to the fire.

There is devilry here. Curse the Mass Media and all the harm they do. These arrogant people who speak in high places, with no care for truth, no affection of the heart, they are consumed with greed, they have built up an artifical power which God will eventually destroy. They set themselves up as gods deciding right from wrong, arbiters of truth in any field, gluttons of information, spreaders of lies, deceits, and slander, heralds of sinful secular society cut off from God, leaders of those who go astray:

Psalm
{72:6} Therefore, arrogance has held on to them. They have been covered with their iniquity and impiety.
{72:7} Their iniquity has proceeded, as if from fat. They have parted from the affection of the heart.
{72:8} They have thought and spoken wickedness. They have spoken iniquity in high places.
{72:9} They have set their mouth against heaven, and their tongue has traversed the earth.
{72:10} Therefore, my people will be converted here, and fullness of days will be found in them.
{72:11} And they said, “How would God know?” and, “Isn’t there knowledge in high places?”
{72:12} Behold, these are sinners, and, abounding in this age, they have obtained riches.

1 Corinthians
{15:32} If, according to man, I fought with the beasts at Ephesus, how would that benefit me, if the dead do not rise again? “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die.”
{15:33} Do not be led astray. Evil communication corrupts good morals.
{15:34} Be vigilant, you just ones, and do not be willing to sin. For certain persons have an ignorance of God. I say this to you with respect.
[/quote]
Yep. This breaks my heart, and makes me angry.

[southern california guy]

I think that the Catholic church is beginning to change its position on contraception and the media was just quick to pick up on it. I know that he used the example of a male prostitute engaging in sodomy -- so the argument could be made that the condom use had nothing to do with contraception -- but watch, I'll bet the Catholic church gradually changes its position on contraception. I'm betting that it's going to happen in less than ten years.

[Archaeology cat]

If that happens, SCG, the gates of Hell will have prevailed, so I doubt that'll happen. The Pope reiterated that condoms are not a moral or real solution - he hasn't changed Church teaching at all. He said that the first step to reclaiming sexuality is to see the other person as a person, and so in some instances it's possible that someone starting to use a condom could be their first recognition of that. It shouldn't stop there, though.

[rkwright]

I favored the interpretation that the church teaching is against contraception, and condoms in homosexual acts aren't contraception, so it can be acceptable.

But the quote in my post above says that he applies this teaching to males, females, transexuals.

Honestly, when applied to females (and hetrosexual activity in general) how is this statement not condoning of sin?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290603828' post='2189021']
I think that the Catholic church is beginning to change its position on contraception and the media was just quick to pick up on it. I know that he used the example of a male prostitute engaging in sodomy -- so the argument could be made that the condom use had nothing to do with contraception -- but watch, I'll bet the Catholic church gradually changes its position on contraception. I'm betting that it's going to happen in less than ten years.
[/quote]

I'll take that bet. Million bucks says they don't reverse contraception!!! NO WAY TAKE IT TO THE BANK! The gates of hell shall not prevail much as some would like them to.

[Brother Adam]

Hey! I want to get in on that too. I bet a million dollars the Church is not going to change its doctrine.

[MithLuin]

[b]rk wright[/b], it is true that contraception is a nonissue when speaking of homosexual behavior.

But it is [i]also[/i] true that human beings are all sinners. All of us. So, the Church has some business of addressing the question of whether or not a female prostitute is being more 'moral' by forgoing the condom. The answer is...no, of course not. Prostitution is gravely wrong, and introducing a condom into the picture doesn't make the action any more or less wrong. I don't see how anyone could construe the pope's words as 'two wrongs make a right!' - at what point did he suggest that prostitution was okay?

The desire to protect one's partner from a disease [i]is[/i] a healthy human concern to have. Willingness to use another person without any thought as to whether or not you are endangering their very [i]life[/i] is...ridiculously callous.

Of course, in most cases, people agree to the use of a condom to protect [i]themselves[/i] from either disease or possible pregnancy. So, if that is the motivation, there is little thought of the other person involved. The person is still just selfishly using their partner, oblivious to the meaning of human sexuality. The pope was being a bit...generous...in his view of the possible motives.

[i]Humane Vitae[/i] isn't going to change, as much as some people in California would like for it to. JPII's [i]Theology of the Body[/i] is an elaborate defense of Church teaching on sexuality and against contraception in particular. [i]Knowing[/i] how many people have been so defiant on the issue of birth control, though, the pope may have wished to state the Church's position more unequivocally. As in, 'Contraception is always wrong. But here was are discussing persons who are engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage, which is gravely wrong in and of itself.....'

The Vatican has not shifted her position on this topic.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1290607573' post='2189026']
I favored the interpretation that the church teaching is against contraception, and condoms in homosexual acts aren't contraception, so it can be acceptable.

But the quote in my post above says that he applies this teaching to males, females, transexuals.

Honestly, when applied to females (and hetrosexual activity in general) how is this statement not condoning of sin?
[/quote]
From the article you posted: [quote]George Weigel, a conservative Catholic writer, said the Vatican was by no means endorsing condom use as a method of contraception or a means of AIDS prevention.
"This is admittedly a difficult distinction to grasp," he told The Associated Press in an e-mail. What the pontiff is saying is "that someone determined to do something wrong may be showing a glimmer of moral common sense by not doing that wrong thing in the worst possible way — which is not an endorsement of anything."[/quote]

In no way was this an endorsement of condoms or contraception, but that using condoms could be the first step in coming to a true understanding of sexuality and seeing sex as something more than just for one's personal pleasure.

[Brother Adam]

FARGO, North Dakota, NOV. 22, 2010 (Zenit.org).- The bishop of Fargo is encouraging the faithful to not trust the media to interpret the words of Benedict XVI for them, and to read for themselves what the Pope has to say about condoms.

Bishop Samuel Aquila made these statements today in response to the flurry of reports over the weekend that suggested the Holy Father approved the use of condoms in some cases.

L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican's semi-official newspaper, spurred the media activity Saturday when it published several excerpts from the book-interview with Benedict XVI titled "Light of the World," which is scheduled to be released Tuesday by Ignatius Press.

At the end of the tenth chapter of the book, the writer, German journalist Peter Seewald, asked the Pontiff two questions on the fight against AIDS and the use of condoms. Seewald referenced the Holy Father's comments on this topic while aboard the papal plane on the way to Cameroon and Angola in March, 2009.

To the charge that it's "madness to forbid a high-risk population to use condoms," Benedict XVI replied: "There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality."

Seewald then asked the Pontiff, "Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?"

The Holy Father replied, "She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality."

Bishop Aquila noted that the Church "has always celebrated the truth and beauty of human sexuality," and that an "unchanging part of that celebration throughout history is the Church's teaching that sexual expression must be open to life [... and] that sexual union within a marriage is between one man and one woman."

"Despite recent news articles which falsely construe the words of Benedict XVI to suggest otherwise," he added, "that teaching has not changed in any way."

No shift

"At issue here are the words of Pope Benedict XVI regarding condom use," the bishop continued. "The news stories and some of the comments solicited from the public would interpret his words as proclaiming a shift in the Catholic Church's teaching on condom use, and contraception in general. [...]

"This conclusion is incorrect as can be easily seen by examining the actual text from the book. The Holy Father is not condoning the use of condoms, but making an observation regarding the awakening of a sense of responsibility in the people who are caught up in the habitual sin of prostitution.

"He does not offer a new moral evaluation of the use of condoms, neither in principle nor practically in this circumstance, but is merely describing a psychological development as one, even in the grip of sin, can begin to acknowledge the safety and human dignity of another."

Bishop Aquila then urged the faithful and "all people of good will to read the entire book."

"Do not depend on the media for your understanding of what Benedict XVI states," he said, "rather go to the source in order to find truth and not someone's misunderstanding and false interpretation of what was actually stated."

[MithLuin]

Have we quoted Conte yet in this thread?

[quote]Pope Benedict’s comment on condoms
Posted on 20 November 2010 by ronconte


Pope Benedict’s book of private theology was quoted by the media as saying: “In certain cases, where the intention is to reduce the risk of infection, it can nevertheless be a first step on the way to another, more humane sexuality.”

“There may be justified individual cases, for example when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be … a first bit of responsibility, to re-develop the understanding that not everything is permitted and that one may not do everything one wishes…. But it is not the proper way to deal with the horror of HIV infection.”

The news media are presenting these comments as if they represent an approval of the Church for the use of contraception, or the use of condoms, in some cases. This claim is a gross misrepresentation of what the Pope said.

The Pope was merely pointing out that a particular intention, to avoid disease transmission, is a good intention. He hopes that such a good intention might lead the person to a better understanding of morality and a turning away from immoral acts. He was not approving of contraception, nor was he approving of the use of condoms by homosexuals (i.e. cases where the condoms are not contraceptive).

The Pope’s comments do not imply that the intrinsically evil act of contraception might be moral with a good intention, such as to avoid disease transmission.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).” (CCC, n. 2399).

Pope John Paul II: “Consequently, circumstances or intentions can never transform an act, intrinsically evil by virtue of its object, into an act ‘subjectively’ good or defensible as a choice.” (Veritatis Splendor, n. 81.)
[/quote]

[url=http://ronconte.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/pope-on-condoms/](source)[/url]

[Niccolò]

Fr. Fessio had a good analogy to what the Pope said:

[b]Muggers are using steel pipes to attack people and the injuries are severe. Some muggers use padded pipes to reduce the injuries, while still disabling the victim enough for the mugging.[/b]

The Pope says that the intention of reducing injury (in the act of mugging) could be a first step toward greater moral responsibility. This would not justify the following headlines: “Pope Approves Padded Pipes for Mugging” “Pope Says Use of Padded Pipes Justified in Some Circumstances”, Pope Permits Use of Padded Pipes in Some Cases”.

[url="http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/11/23/guestview-did-the-pope-%E2%80%9Cjustify%E2%80%9D-condom-use-in-some-circumstances/"]Did the Pope "justify" condom use in some circumstances?[/url]

[kafka]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290603828' post='2189021']
I think that the Catholic church is beginning to change its position on contraception and the media was just quick to pick up on it. I know that he used the example of a male prostitute engaging in sodomy -- so the argument could be made that the condom use had nothing to do with contraception -- but watch, I'll bet the Catholic church gradually changes its position on contraception. I'm betting that it's going to happen in less than ten years.
[/quote]
are you out of your Catholic mind?

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290623888' post='2189055']
Fr. Fessio had a good analogy to what the Pope said:

[b]Muggers are using steel pipes to attack people and the injuries are severe. Some muggers use padded pipes to reduce the injuries, while still disabling the victim enough for the mugging.[/b]

The Pope says that the intention of reducing injury (in the act of mugging) could be a first step toward greater moral responsibility. This would not justify the following headlines: “Pope Approves Padded Pipes for Mugging” “Pope Says Use of Padded Pipes Justified in Some Circumstances”, Pope Permits Use of Padded Pipes in Some Cases”.

[url="http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/11/23/guestview-did-the-pope-%E2%80%9Cjustify%E2%80%9D-condom-use-in-some-circumstances/"]Did the Pope "justify" condom use in some circumstances?[/url]
[/quote]
good analogy