Tales From The Crypt

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1292031742' post='2192061']
ah yes... the YMCA... that's totally a dirty song people grind to...
[/quote]

Ah yes, it can be. Any song that people dance to, especially either dressed immodestly or drunk can lead to one placing ones self in the near occasion of sin. There is a reason why here in the states the legal limit for driving drunk is 0.08 in the majority of the states, this is less than a can of beer ingested in one hour by a 200 lb person, considerably less for the ladies. They have these limits because the average person starts to lose control of their mental facilities at this point. Alcohol is well known for loosening peoples libidos as well as their morals too. Does anyone here really feel its okay to serve alcohol to youths in a setting with a crucifix on the wall and a priest present who condones the setting? What message does this send to the youth who frequent the club? I assume the crypt is hallowed ground, why not just open a larger club in St Peter's Cathedral?

The Ale Mary's bar seems like an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary's name to me, I wonder how many people have left there drunk to engage in some sort of sin? Just the act of overindulgence that many must exhibit in the place is sinful, to name such an establishment that caters to drunks and alcoholics as well as the casual drinker who will stop in to have a beer and maybe a sammitch and never get actually drunk is just a shame which is compounded by the presence of the crucifix collection, seemingly to denote it definitively as a catholic joint . Was the owner thinking this would attract all good drunk catholics or maybe he felt he would get clientele that would come there expressly to get drunk and act wild in a place with a catholic theme to belittle the faith? I just do not know the thinking behind either of these places.

ed

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292208559' post='2192458']
There is a reason why here in the states the legal limit for driving drunk is 0.08 in the majority of the states,[b] this is less than a can of beer ingested in one hour by a 200 lb person,[/b] considerably less for the ladies. [/quote]

lolwhut? a 200lb male who ingests one beer in one hour will have a BAC of .003. Not even close to the legal limit.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292208559' post='2192458']
There is a reason why here in the states the legal limit for driving drunk is 0.08 in the majority of the states, this is less than a can of beer ingested in one hour by a 200 lb person, considerably less for the ladies.

ed
[/quote]


[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1292248792' post='2192522']
lolwhut? a 200lb male who ingests one beer in one hour will have a BAC of .003. Not even close to the legal limit.
[/quote]
LOLWUT? You guys are both way off.

Did you really think you could have 26 drinks and still be under the limit? I sure hope that was a typo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content

Edited December 13, 2010 by notardillacid

[Socrates]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1292186819' post='2192369']
you know, not everybody has homosexuality on their minds when they hear that song...
[/quote]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1292194088' post='2192400']
The YMCA of the song isn't a gym, silly - it's essentially a community center where a poor young man could get resources he needs - it talks about getting cleaned up, getting a meal, and finding a place to stay. [url=http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/ymcalyrics.html]lyrics here[/url] Yes, there is the repeated reference to hanging out with all of the boys....but I see no reason to take that as anything other than finding friendship and community. You'd have to have a comment from the Village People to support your interpretation of these very innocuous lyrics. Victor Willis, the man who wrote the song, insists that it doesn't mean that and is himself heterosexual. Certainly, the many people who sing and enjoy the song throughout the world (it was a #1 hit worldwide) have nothing to do with the gay subculture.
[/quote]
I'd seen the homosexual meaning of the song mentioned in a couple of places; it's not like it's my own personal interpretation of the song or anything.

But given that the Village People was originally started specifically to appeal to the gay subculture, I don't find the interpretation all that far-fetched.
From Wikipedia:
"Originally created to target disco's gay audience by featuring popular gay fantasy personas,[1] the band's popularity quickly brought them into mainstream."

"The band's name references New York City's Greenwich Village neighborhood, at the time known for having a substantial gay population.[7] Morali and Belolo got the inspiration for creating an assembly of American man archetypes based on the gay men of The Village who frequently dressed in various fantasy attire."

Though really I don't find the playing of the song at that club particularly scandalous, as for most people it's just a silly dance tune with no deeper meaning.
I find all disco pretty gay anyway, so it doesn't really matter to me. I just find the whole thing kind of ironic.



Anyway, back to the main topic at hand . . . I don't really have a problem with a Catholic bar/club, though I find its proximity to the tombs a bit troubling. The article indicates that the club is in a part of the crypt separate from the tombs, but still . . .
("Crypt" means simply the basement level of a church, and doesn't necessarily imply a burial place.)

At my undergrad Alma Mater, a very orthodox conservative Catholic school, the alumni reception at Homecoming is held in the chapel crypt, where alcoholic beverages are served, as the neighboring commons building is reserved for (gasp!) dancing.

The idea that Christians must not dance or serve alcohol sounds more Baptist than Catholic.

I don't have a problem with the concept, but I think it would be better to have in in a building other than a church.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Socrates

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='notardillacid' timestamp='1292252897' post='2192530']
LOLWUT? You guys are both way off.

Did you really think you could have[b] 26 drinks[/b] and still be under the limit? I sure hope that was a typo!

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content"]http://en.wikipedia....alcohol_content[/url]
[/quote]

[size="5"]Lol whut[/size]

Is there a joke I am not getting?

[MithLuin]

[b]Ed[/b], the wife and mother of the guy who started the Ale Mary's bar were both named....Mary. And yes, it's in a heavily Catholic Polish neighborhood. I'm sure many people have gone to that bar and gotten drunk....it is, after all....a bar. But when I said I frequent it with my coworkers, I mean that after work we stop by, have a drink or two, eat tatertots, and talk. There is nothing 'scandalous' about that, and we're all safe to drive home afterward. We go there (or to another local establishment) to socialize, not to get drunk and not to hook up (gah!) I like looking at the decor, though I could certainly see why some people would find it inappropriate for a bar. They also have nun dolls and pictures of the former pope, and a holy water holder next to the door that has mints in it instead.

Yes, alcohol loosens things up, but what that means for people who are having [i]one or two drinks[/i] over the course of an evening is generally...their tongues. It makes the conversation keep flowing. Very few people are going to get drunk from that level of imbibing. Drunkenness and immodest dancing would be inappropriate, and certainly the existence of a club leaves open that possibility. I don't see that this particular place is encouraging sexual immorality, though - seems to me it's trying to avoid the stereotype of the anonymous club scene hookups. I'm still trying to figure out how someone can dance to 'YMCA' immodestly, though. I mean...the song doesn't really lend itself to that, unless the person were partially undressed to begin with. It's not a dance you do [i]with[/i] anyone...you just stand in a line and put your hands in the air....

Anyway, I don't go to clubs. Not my thing at all. But I don't think it's scandalous to have music, wine and dancing in a church basement. If it were in sacred space of some sort, I would definitely have a different reaction to this...but I doubt that crypt means altar in this case.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292208559' post='2192458']
Ah yes, it can be. Any song that people dance to, especially either dressed immodestly or drunk can lead to one placing ones self in the near occasion of sin. There is a reason why here in the states the legal limit for driving drunk is 0.08 in the majority of the states, this is less than a can of beer ingested in one hour by a 200 lb person, considerably less for the ladies. They have these limits because the average person starts to lose control of their mental facilities at this point. Alcohol is well known for loosening peoples libidos as well as their morals too. Does anyone here really feel its okay to serve alcohol to youths in a setting with a crucifix on the wall and a priest present who condones the setting? What message does this send to the youth who frequent the club? I assume the crypt is hallowed ground, why not just open a larger club in St Peter's Cathedral?

The Ale Mary's bar seems like an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary's name to me, I wonder how many people have left there drunk to engage in some sort of sin? Just the act of overindulgence that many must exhibit in the place is sinful, to name such an establishment that caters to drunks and alcoholics as well as the casual drinker who will stop in to have a beer and maybe a sammitch and never get actually drunk is just a shame which is compounded by the presence of the crucifix collection, seemingly to denote it definitively as a catholic joint . Was the owner thinking this would attract all good drunk catholics or maybe he felt he would get clientele that would come there expressly to get drunk and act wild in a place with a catholic theme to belittle the faith? I just do not know the thinking behind either of these places.

ed
[/quote]
As is stated in a previous post (by Socrates, I believe) "crypt" can merely refer to a church basement. And saying "youths" makes it sound like you're talking about a bunch of 13 year olds...

But at any rate, what it sounds likes you're saying is that alcohol can lead to bad things, so we should make it so that there isn't any sort of positive atmosphere in which people can obtain it and instead make the only place people can go out for drinks the shady establishments. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I would personally LOVE to have somewhere that isn't a nasty, smelly, creeper-infested establishment to go out with my friends on occassion to have a couple drinks. If it had a Catholic theme, I'd think it was even cooler!

Can alcohol lead to sin or near occassions of sin? Yes, but so can many other things. Alcohol is not inherently evil. Moral of the story is that people need to know their own limits, and because people may get drunk and sin doesn't make the Church or priests responsible for it. Do you blame Jesus for people who may have sinned after imbibing the wine he made at the wedding at Cana?

It would be one thing if this were set up to actually encourage people to get drunk, but from reading the article, it's not the point of it. It sounds much more like it's aimed at giving people a place that isn't a nasty, smelly, creeper-infested establishment!

[Sternhauser]

Additionally, we're talking about [i]two drinks! [/i]That's not enough to get 95% of people drunk, even in immediate succession. As someone else pointed out, there are plenty of places in Rome for people who want to get hammered and find a one night stand, and that is [i]not[/i] why those kids are going to the Crypt. It would be a Godsend if such places popped up all over the world. (In more proper places.)

~Sternhauser

Edited December 15, 2010 by Sternhauser

[let_go_let_God]

Youth in the European Culture denotes those that are 35 and under and having a drink to socialize with is a common occurrence and fully acceptable within their culture.

God bless-
LGLG

[Ed Normile]

Missscripture the thread clearly states "ROME—The crypt of the Basilica di San Carlo al Corso near St. Peter's Square has boasted tombs of cardinals for centuries. Today it is taking on a livelier vibe." this seems like a crypt and consecrated ground to me.

Stern, although two beers is nothing for most people it is still legally drunk depending on how long until one is tested. A 200 lb man ingesting just one beer has a blood alcohol level of .019 if he left the bar within the hour he drank the beer and was tested he would get a free ride to jail and a bed for the night even if he could recite the Gettysburg address while standing on one foot. Now the burn off rate for alcohol is .015% per hour, so an hour after he ingested the beer he would register .004 which would pass, but this varies greatly with the individual due to their metabolism.

This is a site which may help you guys. [url="http://duikit.com/dui_education.htm"]My link[/url]

Icenine, man you are way off, first the man would need an hour after drinking the one beer for it to burn off to a .004, again let me say clearly this varies with each persons metabolism.

And to all, I am Irish and have drunk since I was a kid, all my family members drink, well the men and only a very few of the women in my family. I have seen giant men who can not handle a beer, and men like my uncle who is 5'3" who we joke about having a fake leg to hold the beer in, this man could and regularly does drink as many as six beers an hour at family get togethers and never slurs a word or appears drunk. I have seen cousins who took their first drink and became an alcoholic and others who it does not bother, some have died from the booze and others were eventually able to quit, after it taking a toll on their health, their businesses and their marriages. Booze is great fun, socially it does loosen up a shy person making them easier talkers and some persons losser morals, again this varies with the person too. All in all I would say that consecrated ground or a place that "boasted tombs of cardinals for centuries" is no place for booze or partying, what ever happened to respect and reverence for the dead, not to mention the Basilica?

ed

Edited December 20, 2010 by Ed Normile

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292827722' post='2193583']


Stern, although two beers is nothing for most people it is still legally drunk depending on how long until one is tested. A 200 lb man ingesting just one beer has a blood alcohol level of .019 if he left the bar within the hour he drank the beer and was tested he would get a free ride to jail and a bed for the night even if he could recite the Gettysburg address while standing on one foot.

[/quote]
Seriously, where do you live? 0.019 is plenty below the limit. The only way he is going to jail is if he [i]immediately[/i] tested and the breathalyzer is registering a falsely high BAC.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292827722' post='2193583']

Icenine, man you are way off, first the man would need an hour after drinking the one beer for it to burn off to a .004, again let me say clearly this varies with each persons metabolism.

[/quote]

Yes that's what I meant. Within an hour that's how low the BAC would be. But even .019% is still quite far below the legal limit of .08% rite?

[MithLuin]

Legal limit? That varies by locality. This place is in Rome, so the relevant legalities would be the local law there (which I was not familiar with, so I looked them up).

[quote]The legal blood alcohol concentration (BAC) limit in Italy is: less than .05%, also defined as 0.5 grams per litre of blood (50 mg/100 ml of blood).[/quote]

That is, of course, for [i]drivers[/i] - pedestrians or those relying on public transportation (which is convenient and essentially free in Rome) would not be in trouble if their BAC were higher. If people are coming to this place to socialize, I seriously doubt they are walking in, downing two beers, and then walking out. Serving alcohol to adults (but discouraging drunkenness) seems to be an appropriate Catholic activity to me. I am also (mostly) Irish, and have been to many family parties. I went to a state university, and saw many irresponsible people get trashed while they were on campus. I've seen people abuse alcohol, and have many relatives who have been through AA or rehab (or should have). I do not want to suggest blithely that alcohol is not dangerous, but I [i]do[/i] want to suggest that it can be enjoyed without sinful behavior.



[b]Ed[/b], I can understand not being comfortable with the use of a crypt for this activity, since it would seem the church has less control over what goes on than if it were a gathering of young adults invited there for a social - it's essentially open to the public. But I don't see it as that much different from Theology on Tap, which is held in bars. The intent is clearly outreach and making a space available with moral norms in place. My usual statement is...if it doesn't sit well with you, don't go there .

The relevant canon law is here:

[quote]Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.[/quote]

If this is 'in the church' (including a crypt church) with altars this would be highly inappropriate. If this is in a hall in the basement...then it wouldn't be a desecration of sacred space. Since I haven't seen the venue, I'll give the priest who planned this idea the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out this really is located in what should be reserved as sacred space....then I will change my opinion to 'good idea, wrong venue.'

Here's one reason why I trust this priest to know what's going on:

[quote]Monsignior Martinelli comes from the Diocese of Bergamo. He has a PhD in Sacred Theology, specializing in Pastoral Catechesis from Rome's Pontifical Lateran University. He also has a second PhD in Pedagogy from the Catholic University of Milan in Italy.

He started working in 1980 at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith where he was a close collaborator for 23 years to His Eminence Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

He also coordinated and prepared the work for the Catechism of the Catholic church and was involved as coordinator of the secretariat in the process and the compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Ever since 1987 he has been Rector to the International Ecclesiastical College of Saint Charles and the Primicerio at Saint Ambrose and Saint Charles' Basilica in the city of Rome, Italy.[/quote]

The GPII pub is his idea.

I can only find pictures of the church, not the crypt, online:

[img]http://www.sancarlo.pcn.net/res13.jpg[/img]

Edited December 21, 2010 by MithLuin

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1292827722' post='2193583']
Stern, although two beers is nothing for most people it is still legally drunk depending on how long until one is tested. A 200 lb man ingesting just one beer has a blood alcohol level of .019 if he left the bar within the hour he drank the beer and was tested he would get a free ride to jail and a bed for the night even if he could recite the Gettysburg address while standing on one foot. Now the burn off rate for alcohol is .015% per hour, so an hour after he ingested the beer he would register .004 which would pass, but this varies greatly with the individual due to their metabolism.
[/quote]

.019? So, in other words, four times below .08, the statutory limit under the vast majority of States?

~Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1292976830' post='2193873']
.019? So, in other words, four times below .08, the statutory limit under the vast majority of States?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Yea it seems that way to me too, I do not know how the math works and the sites I have found are more confusing than helpful. I do know that I took a cousin of mine to a DUI school as part of his sentence as he had lost his license and no one else could take him. I had to drive to Columbus Ohio to take him, if he missed the class he would have been arrested, the whole three hours I sat in the back as it was a bad day and I had nothing else to do, I know that at that class they repeatedly said that a 200 lb man drinking one 12 ounce beer and tested within one hour would be over the limit and be arrested for DUI. They were adamant and made this point at least twenty times during the class.

My cousin was 24, and was playing golf in a foursome and had drank two beers over the course of 10 holes of play when they went across a street to a convienence store to pick up another six pack. The cop who stopped him later said that was his favorite spot to pick up drunk drivers, yes he was driving a golf cart and tested well over the legal limit even though he had passed all field sobriety tests. I posted the site link so you guys could see what I had found after googling it well after I had written the original post in the spirit of honest discovery. I do not know why they would teach this at a class for drunk drivers but they definetly impressed it on me that it was true and I was only a casual observer.Either way it cost him well over 12,000 dollars in fines, lawyers and court costs and he was not even involved in an accident.

ed