Giving Alcohol To The Underaged

[Winchester]

It's an arbitrary number and the spirit of the law is to reduce abuse. There is nothing inherently immoral with providing them alcohol, nor with violating the letter of that law.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290624855' post='2189063']
The state can and does regulate what we can consume.
[/quote]
No. The state does not grant us rights. We grant it some limited rights. Where in the constitution do we give the government the right to tell us what we may or may not eat or drink?

[Niccolò]

[quote name='notardillacid' timestamp='1290627399' post='2189070']
No. The state does not grant us rights. We grant it some limited rights. Where in the constitution do we give the government the right to tell us what we may or may not eat or drink?
[/quote]

What do you mean by "rights"? The state does indeed grant us some rights.

Regardless, I was speaking in general. Generally, governments can and do regulate what we consume, and there is no Catholic principle that says a government cannot do this.

If you want to speak particularly about whether a law setting the drinking age at 21 is constitutional, that's another matter. However, it's clear that such laws are constitutional. States set the drinking age as a condition for receiving Federal highway funds, so really this has little to do with the Federal constitution.

[Winchester]

The state grants privileges.

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290634772' post='2189089']
The state grants privileges.
[/quote]

And rights are derived from God?

Can you provide me a list of rights? Rights the Church has stated are given by God? Such a list will be much smaller than those "rights" Americans usually think about.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I was served alcohol in a seminary prior to my turning 21. And by religious once, as well.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290635272' post='2189091']
And rights are derived from God?

Can you provide me a list of rights? Rights the Church has stated are given by God? Such a list will be much smaller than those "rights" Americans usually think about.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.google.com/"]Good luck.[/url]


You have no argument. I'm disappointed to see a Catholic resort to the enumerated list tactic. In doubtful matters, liberty. Catholicism is not a religion that requires we turn off our brains, or that we have a book to seek out specific answers for specific situations. You believe that we must follow the letter of the law to suit the whimsy of the state. The Church nowhere demands this of us, but it's the path you've chosen.

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290638365' post='2189105']
[url="http://www.google.com/"]Good luck.[/url]


You have no argument. I'm disappointed to see a Catholic resort to the enumerated list tactic. In doubtful matters, liberty. Catholicism is not a religion that requires we turn off our brains, or that we have a book to seek out specific answers for specific situations. You believe that we must follow the letter of the law to suit the whimsy of the state. The Church nowhere demands this of us, but it's the path you've chosen.
[/quote]

You misinterpret. It was stated earlier that establishing a drinking age requirement violates the natural law. I contend that it does not.

Natural rights, rights given by God, are not the same as legal rights. When Americans speak of "rights," they often mean legal rights. A legal right is given by law, and it can be taken away by law.

Here is my position: Government has been placed above us by God. Thus, laws enacted by that government should be followed as much as possible. When civil law violates God's law, that law is illegitimate. However, it's hard to see how establishing a drinking age violates God's law.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290639172' post='2189109']
You misinterpret. It was stated earlier that establishing a drinking age requirement violates the natural law. I contend that it does not.

Natural rights, rights given by God, are not the same as legal rights. When Americans speak of "rights," they often mean legal rights. A legal right is given by law, and it can be taken away by law.

Here is my position: Government has been placed above us by God. Thus, laws enacted by that government should be followed as much as possible. When civil law violates God's law, that law is illegitimate. However, it's hard to see how establishing a drinking age violates God's law.
[/quote]
Laws must have the character of justice, which a drinking age law does not. It's whimsy. The just intent would be preventing those with poor judgment from drinking. That a 19 year old can make life or death decisions in combat but cannot decide if he's capable of having a beer makes the whimsy clear. If a man drinks underage, he breaks no moral law and commits no sin by drinking.

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1290640247' post='2189116']
Laws must have the character of justice, which a drinking age law does not. It's whimsy. The just intent would be preventing those with poor judgment from drinking. That a 19 year old can make life or death decisions in combat but cannot decide if he's capable of having a beer makes the whimsy clear.[/quote]

I hear this argument often, but to me it seems to miss the mark. The law's intent is not really to prevent those with poor judgment from drinking, but rather to prevent those with poor judgment [i]with regard to drinking[/i] from drinking. It's pretty clear that high school- and college-age citizens are less capable than older individuals when it comes to responsibly handling alcohol. Out of concern for the health of its citizens, the state can impose a minimum age for the common good.

[quote]
If a man drinks underage, he breaks no moral law and commits no sin by drinking.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure. Here is what informs my view:

[quote]
[b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]:
2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts: 43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution.... Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God." 44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

[b]Diuturnum[/b] (Pope Leo XIII):
15. [b]The one only reason which men have for not obeying is when anything is demanded of them which is openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law[/b], for it is equally unlawful to command to do anything in which the law of nature or the will of God is violated. If, therefore, it should happen to any one to be compelled to prefer one or the other, viz., to disregard either the commands of God or those of rulers, he must obey Jesus Christ, who commands us to "give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's,"(18) and must reply courageously after the example of the Apostles: "We ought to obey God rather than men."(19) And yet there is no reason why those who so behave themselves should be accused of refusing obedience; for, if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, they themselves exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice; nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null.
[/quote]

Going off Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical [i]Diuturnum[/i] specifically, it seems difficult to make the argument that a minimum drinking age is "openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law."

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290643369' post='2189128']
Going off Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical [i]Diuturnum[/i] specifically, it seems difficult to make the argument that a minimum drinking age is "openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law."
[/quote]

Do you personally have the right to use violence against someone under the age of 21, if that person drinks?

~Sternhauser

[Lilllabettt]

I don't understand what the debate is?

If you don't want to go to a party, don't.
If you want to explain why, do.
If you'd rather not explain, don't.

You're not obligated to anybody.

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290646409' post='2189134']
Do you personally have the right to use violence against someone under the age of 21, if that person drinks?
[/quote]

No I do not.

Go on.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Niccolò' timestamp='1290720140' post='2189285']
No I do not.

Go on.
[/quote]

Precisely how does the State come by such a "right?" In detail, please.

~Sternhauser

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290722144' post='2189290']
Precisely how does the State come by such a "right?" In detail, please.
[/quote]

The State has authority from God to establish laws that aim to promote the common good. Drinking age laws aim to promote the common good, specifically by making roads safer.

We may argue whether or not such a law does promote the common good, but absent the law being "openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law," we are bound to obey.