Giving Alcohol To The Underaged

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290164266' post='2188017']
It's not illegal, and it's not a crime, any more than the Fugitive Slave Act was a "law," and any more than breaking it was a "crime." I don't use their incorrect terminology, just like I don't use the term "gay marriage." There's no such thing.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

The state defines the terms illegal and crime, not you.
Go host a party- get a bunch of 12 year olds drunk and see how fast you go to jail.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1290236637' post='2188181']
The social awkwardness has nothing to do with the partying and I say that he might be forming an attraction because he's been trying to spend a lot of time with me and singling me out for special attention. Multiple people on campus have commented on his social awkwardness and have tried to get out of spending time with him because he is known for being clingy.
[/quote]

Being socially awkward isn't a sin nor is being clingy. It's not your job to be the underage drinking patrol especially when everyone there is an adult and you are a guest.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290200601' post='2188078']
Why do young people smoke? Because those those first few packs are so awesome? Because it makes you feel good to cough up a storm and sear their lungs the first few times? No, they do it in great part because it's forbidden by their parents, and they feel rebellious and "grown-up" by smoking.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I'd be pretty confident in saying all the parties involved were past the "drinking is cool cuz adults do it" stage. They aren't high school juniors.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1290245194' post='2188194']
I'd be pretty confident in saying all the parties involved were past the "drinking is cool cuz adults do it" stage. They aren't high school juniors.
[/quote]

A sad fact, but many people don't get past the "drinking is cool cuz adults do it" stage until around age 35. Some never get past that stage. Take note of how many people in photos are holding up their ubiquitous red plastic cups at parties, who might as well be screaming, "Look at us! We're drinking [i]alcohol[/i]!"

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/342000639_6dc480ee99.jpg[/img]

~Sternhauser

Edited November 20, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

[b]TT[/b] - If you don't feel comfortable going to parties at his place, just don't go. You don't need to give him your reasons or have a discussion. Just, the next time he has a get-together, say 'no thanks' and don't show up. If he were a close friend, then I'd say, sure, you could have a conversation about whether or not it's appropriate to be inviting minors over and getting them drunk. But, you say you don't know him that well and don't want to get to know him that well. So, just excuse yourself from the party.

He may be socially awkward and clingy, but he seems to have enough people to hang out with that he's not completely alone/lonely. He'll be just fine if you turn down his overtures.

I didn't drink in college. Neither did any of my friends. I went to a public university, and there were plenty of frats and sororities, plenty of alcohol in the dorms, and certainly all sorts of opportunities to indulge. Despite that, I was invited to a party where crazy college kids get wasted exactly once in my four years there (and I declined - I didn't really know the people who would be at the party). We had fun, stayed up really late on Friday and Saturday nights, hung out, whatever....but no alcohol was involved. That didn't change when we turned 21. On my 21st birthday, I went out to eat with my family, and even though I made sure I had my ID with me, I didn't order any alcohol to drink. I thought it was important to be a good example to my little brothers.

I think it was because most of my friends weren't Catholic. The people I spent the most time with were all evangelical Christians, who seem to be more acutely aware of the sinfulness of drunkenness than most of the Catholics I've known. I'm related to enough alcoholics and have been attending family drinking parties since I was a baby - drinking has just never seemed cool to me. It was more...intensely embarrassing than anything. I must admit, though, it [i]was[/i] fun to go into the liquor store with my dad as a little girl. He'd buy me a pretzel stick, and chat with the guy who owned the place.

I've finally started to drink in the past year or so, because it's awkward to go to a bar with colleagues and just get water. So, I drink sangria or rum and cokes socially (I still don't like beer.) I have to be safe to drive home, so I drink modestly. I have never been drunk, well, as long as we don't count the time I passed out when I was 18 mo. old. My mother gave me raspberry cordial while I was teething, and one night (it was dark) she gave me too much by mistake. I've even played a drinking game and wasn't even buzzed afterwards. Jaegermeister + Red Bull is [i]disgusting[/i], so I was only taking small sips, not shots. The people I was with didn't mind - no one was [i]trying[/i] to get me drunk. I didn't drink at a family party until I was 30...and I nursed that scotch all afternoon.

I think that's the important thing about drinking. You have to be responsible, and you shouldn't drink with people who will pressure you to be irresponsible. If you can't trust the people you're with, it's not as much fun to go out with them. So...if you're feeling uncomfortable, simply remove yourself from the situation. Find friends you're comfortable hanging out with.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1290237427' post='2188183']

The state defines the terms illegal and crime, not you.
[/quote]
Seriously.
There's a difference between not accepting the legitimacy of the state and just being flat-out deluded. I might not think it "painful" nor "potentially lethal" to be hit by a bus, but that won't keep me from a hospital bed if I step out in front of a number 9.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1290237427' post='2188183']

The state defines the terms illegal and crime, not you.[/quote]

Oh, O.K. Abortion [i]isn't [/i]a crime. Thank you for clarifying that. Very well then. Carry on.

St. Thomas did define what a law is. A "crime" isn't merely something prohibited by statute. I can call abortion "legal" and therefore "not a crime," but I'm dead wrong in both cases, and a confused Catholic at best, or a poor Catholic, at worst.


[quote]Go host a party- get a bunch of 12 year olds drunk and see how fast you go to jail.
[/quote]

Do the [i]consequences[/i] of an action really make that action a crime?

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1290451010' post='2188599']
Seriously.
There's a difference between not accepting the legitimacy of the state and just being flat-out deluded. I might not think it "painful" nor "potentially lethal" to be hit by a bus, but that won't keep me from a hospital bed if I step out in front of a number 9.
[/quote]

USAirways,

If you don't agree with correct terminology, I'm not going to apologize. I'm going to use the terms properly. Kind of like "gay marriage." I don't use the term, because it's a damnable lie condensed into two words.

Do I think I won't be arrested by men in power, for an action others might, in their ignorance, call a "crime?" Of course I would be arrested. My being arrested does not change the nature of my action into that of a "crime." A statute is not a "law." Breaking a statute is not a "crime." Priests who say masses in places like China and North Korea are [i]not[/i] criminals, and are not breaking any [i]laws[/i], despite what the regimes claim. A law is a law. A crime is a crime.



~Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

Ok, fine, [b]Stern[/b], but despite this thread winding up on the debate table, this thread was really about [b]TT[/b] asking for advice. She has no intention of serving anyone alcohol, from the sound of things. The question is what she should do in a situation that makes her uncomfortable. Drunkenness is morally wrong, the Bible makes that quite clear on several occasions. So even leaving the 'underaged' part out of it...there is a moral dilemma at hand as well as a social dilemma.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290453720' post='2188609']Priests who say masses in places like China and North Korea are [i]not[/i] criminals, and are not breaking any [i]laws[/i], despite what the regimes claim. A law is a law. A crime is a crime.

[/quote]
By the strictest definitions, they are criminals, and by even the loosest rational definitions, they are breaking a law. It may not be just, but in that state, it is indeed the law. It's preposterous to try and claim otherwise.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1290478371' post='2188712']
Ok, fine, [b]Stern[/b], but despite this thread winding up on the debate table, this thread was really about [b]TT[/b] asking for advice. She has no intention of serving anyone alcohol, from the sound of things. The question is what she should do in a situation that makes her uncomfortable. Drunkenness is morally wrong, the Bible makes that quite clear on several occasions. So even leaving the 'underaged' part out of it...there is a moral dilemma at hand as well as a social dilemma.
[/quote]

And we addressed that issue, apparently to her satisfaction. It was pointed out that she shouldn't hang around irresponsible people, and that she's under no obligation to explain to the clingy guy why she's not coming.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1290482085' post='2188732']
By the strictest definitions, they are criminals,[/quote]

Tyrants are pretty strict, I agree. Twisting the meaning of words is also something at which they're pretty skilled.

[quote]and by even the loosest rational definitions, they are breaking a law. It may not be just, but in that state, it is indeed the law. It's preposterous to try and claim otherwise.
[/quote]

What you said is inaccurate. A law must first be an ordinance of right reason, according to St. Thomas. A statute against saying the Mass fails that smell test at the very first whiff. And as St. Augustine said in his [i]On Free Choice of the Will[/i], "an unjust law is no law at all." Hence, someone who does not break a law is not a criminal. Take up your arguments about my statements with them.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 23, 2010 by Sternhauser

[tinytherese]

Drinking before the age of 21 isn't a right and isn't unjust like slavery or segregation. It also isn't contrary to the law of nature or human dignity like same sex marriage.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1290558194' post='2188908']
Drinking before the age of 21 isn't a right and isn't unjust like slavery or segregation. It also isn't contrary to the law of nature or human dignity like same sex marriage.
[/quote]

21 is an arbitrary number. As you say, drinking before the age of 21 is not unjust, which is why it [i]is[/i] unjust to prevent a responsible person from drinking before that age. I have no right to stop a just and responsible person from drinking alcohol. Therefore, I have no right to give that right to a third party.

From whence do you think your right to drink [i]after[/i] the age of 21 comes? Do you think you [i]have [/i]a "right" to drink after 21? It is contrary to the law of nature is to have someone arbitrarily tell someone what he may or may not do because of a number.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 24, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290559808' post='2188918']
21 is an arbitrary number. As you say, drinking before the age of 21 is not unjust, which is why it [i]is[/i] unjust to prevent a responsible person from drinking before that age. I have no right to stop a just and responsible person from drinking alcohol. Therefore, I have no right to give that right to a third party.

From whence do you think your right to drink [i]after[/i] the age of 21 comes? Do you think you [i]have [/i]a "right" to drink after 21? It is contrary to the law of nature is to have someone arbitrarily tell someone what he may or may not do because of a number.
[/quote]

I disagree.

Contrary to the law of nature? Please elaborate. The state can and does regulate what we can consume.

I see no Catholic principle violated by a law putting the drinking age at 21. Therefore, because the state has been given authority by God to promote the common good, it would be a sin against the 5th Commandment to ignore such a law.