Salvation

[Damiano]

*["...It is inspired by God, but nowhere does the Bible claim to be the [i]only[/i] authority inspired by Him. Also, it was men (specifically the men of the Catholic Church) who put the Bible together. If you don't accept that they were themselves inspired, then the Bible is worth rather a lot less."]

***Your church cannot "give authority" to the Bible by witnessing to its veracity. The Bible is authoratative because it is the inspired Word of God [2 Timothy 3:16], whatever anyone says about it. One does NOT impart beauty to the Mona Lisa by his admiration and praise...nor does he add value to the Crown jewels by recognizing their worth. In the same way, we do not give authority to the books by recognizing them as the Word of God.

During the first centuries, Christians endeavoured to identify the canon of the NT. Previously, God enabled the Jews to recognize the canonical books of the OT. God, who inspired the Scriptures, made sure that His people would possess and acknowledge His Book. Though Christians and their leaders are fallible and liable to make mistakes, yet God's providence guaranteed that their decisions were correct. Christ's people recognize the Word of their Master: "To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers" [John 10:3-5].

Your assertion that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible and that it has authority over it is are claims that are patently FALSE...to wit:

(1) Romanism does not have authority over the Bible.
Since the Bible is the Word of God (which we BOTH claim to be true)...how can mere men give authority to the Word of their CREATOR and LORD? Even your church does NOT assume this proud position in its OFFICIAL writings: "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 86). Can a servant give authority to his Master? Of course not!...neither can the Church give authority to the Word of her LORD.

(2) The Bible was not given by the Catholic Church.
The Bible is inspired by God [2 Timothy 3:16]: is NOT given BY the church, but TO the church. You...as a papist apologist...are so eager to elevate the authority of your church, that you even CONTRADICT the teaching of your own church. Here's what the First Vatican Council declared...to wit: "The books of the church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed TO the church."

The Scriptures are the RULE of faith because they ARE the Word of God and NOT because they were APPROVED by the AUTHORITY of the church...so much for the idea that the church gives authority to the Bible or that the church gave the Bible!!

BOTTOM-LINE: Your assertions captures the spirit of Catholicism...to wit: With a false sense of humility, the Vatican professes that "the magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but it's servant," when in practice the magisterium exalts itself to the highest. NONE can challenge their teaching by appealing to the Bible, since they claim that only the magisterium can interpret the Scriptures correctly. Moreover, the magisterium can always fall back on "Sacred Tradition" as the DIVINE source of their teaching. Since no one KNOWS the contents of this TRADITION apart from the teaching of the magisterium, they have a free hand to teach whatever they fancy.

How else can Rome justify her theological novelties, such as auricular confession, universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome, and the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption? How can Rome legislate regulations such as celibacy and feasts of obligation without biblical support unless it SURPASSES the ULTIMATE authority of the Word of God?

Damiano

[Selah]

[quote]Romanism does not have authority over the Bible.[/quote]

No one here is a "Romanist." That's a very offensive term, and I would appreciate it if you did not use it.

And Sola Scriptura is nonsense. Especially when you consider how the early Church throughout history was governed. It wasn't by a book, that's for sure.

Goodness. I'm not even Catholic and I know this stuff

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='14 May 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1273883243' post='2110859']
No one here is a "Romanist." That's a very offensive term, and I would appreciate it if you did not use it.

And Sola Scriptura is nonsense. Especially when you consider how the early Church throughout history was governed. It wasn't by a book, that's for sure.

Goodness. I'm not even Catholic and I know this stuff
[/quote]
Romanist isn't offensive. Just imaginary.

It's basically like me calling you a forlatist. Just a pretend word with no real meaning.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Damiano' date='14 May 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1273882797' post='2110855']
During the first centuries, [b][color="#0000FF"]the Catholic Church[/color][/b] endeavored to identify the canon of the NT. God, who inspired the Scriptures, made sure that His people would possess and acknowledge His [b][color="#0000FF"]word[/color][/b]. Though [b][color="#0000FF"]the bishops[/color][/b] are fallible [b][color="#0000FF"]like all men[/color][/b], yet God's providence guaranteed that [b][color="#0000FF"]the bishops[/color][/b] decisions were correct. Christ's [b][color="#0000FF"]Catholic Church[/color][/b] recognizes the word of [b][color="#0000FF"]her[/color][/b] Master: "To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers" [John 10:3-5].
[/quote]
I made some minor corrections (in blue boldface text) to Damiano's post.

[Selah]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 May 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1273895181' post='2110965']
Romanist isn't offensive. Just imaginary.

It's basically like me calling you a forlatist. Just a pretend word with no real meaning.

[/quote]

I guess it varies from Catholic to Catholic, because I have met those that regard the word as bad as a racial slur.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='15 May 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1273957205' post='2111183']
I guess it varies from Catholic to Catholic, because I have met those that regard the word as bad as a racial slur.
[/quote]
My way is better for the blood pressure.

[Selah]

[Salve Regina]

I have a theory that we could all agree about this if we would just state it right, but perhaps it would be heretical to both Catholics and Protestants?

Could we say that we are saved...

Through God's grace alone [i]Eph 2[/i]
[i][sup][size="1"][b] 8[/b][/size][/sup]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [sup][b][size="1"]9[/size][/b][/sup]not by works, so that no one can boast.

[/i]But we have to accept it through a [u]living[/u] faith? [i]Mark 16 + James 2
[/i][b][sup][size="1"]16[/size][/sup][/b][i]Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
[b][sup][size="1"]17[/size][/sup][/b]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.[/i]

I often get the feeling that arguments are more over language choices than actual differences of belief. But maybe I'm too optimistic.

[Resurrexi]

I am a Romanist.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

[quote name='Damiano' date='25 April 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1272226220' post='2099851']...to be saved from .....you must receive Jesus Christ PERSONALLY as YOUR SAVIOUR by faith and trust [/quote]


I hate to burst your bubble, but both faith and trust are works of the will (i.e. WORKS). You seem to believe that you can be saved by the works of making an alter call and saying the sinners prayer, neither of which are in the bible.

You need to denounce those extra-biblical false, man made doctrines of SOLA FIDE of Protestism. [u]As to Protestantism, Come out of Her[/u] and into The Church established by Jesus Christ.

[font="Verdana"]If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at [/font][url="http://www.chnetwork.org/"][font="Verdana"]http://www.chnetwork.org/[/font][/url][font="Verdana"]. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, "He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day." And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ. [/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]

Edited May 26, 2010 by IgnatiusOfAntioch

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

[quote name='Selah' date='15 May 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1273957205' post='2111183']
I guess it varies from Catholic to Catholic, because I have met those that regard the word as bad as a racial slur.
[/quote]

That is because not all Catholics are Roman Rite.

Here's a little info:
Let's start of by using the correct terms. The Catholic Church is actually a communion of 23 Sui Juris Churches. The term Roman Catholic is actually incorrect when referring to the entire Catholic Church in communion with the See of St. Peter. The term ‘Roman’ Catholic is a relatively modern term, and one, moreover, that is confined largely to the English language. In the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council's official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.

Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as "I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church." Simply that -- Catholic Church. There are references the Roman rite, etc., but when the adjective Roman is used, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!



Roman Rite is not co-terminus with the Church as a whole; that would mean neglecting the Byzantine, Chaldean, Maronite or other Oriental rites which are all very much part of the Catholic Church with whom the Holy See of St. Peter is in Communion.

There are a number of Churches [i]sui iuris[/i] that, together, constitute the Catholic Church – There are Western, Eastern and Oriental Churches. The term [i]sui iuris[/i] means, literally, "of their own law", or self-governing. These various Churches (canon 112) are "autonomous ritual Churches". Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops.





Here, then, is a break-out most frequently referenced members of The Catholic Church:

[list][*][b]Alexandrean[/b][list][*][i]Coptic Tradition[/i][list][list][*][b]Coptic Catholic Church[/b][/list][/list][*][i]Ge'ez Tradition[/i][list][list][*][b]Ethiopian[/b] [b]Catholic Church [/b][list][*][b][i]Includes the Eritrean Catholic Church[/i][/b][/list][/list][/list][/list][*][b]Antiochene[/b][list][*][i]East Syrian Tradition[/i][list][list][*][b]Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church[/b][list][list][*][i]Knanaya Usage[/i][/list][/list][/list][/list][*][i]West Syrian Tradition[/i][list][list][*][b]Syriac Catholic Church[/b][*][b]Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church[/b][list][list][*][i]Knanaya Usage (informal)[/i][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][*][b]Armenian[/b][list][list][list][*][b]Armenian Catholic Church[/b][/list][/list][/list][*][b]Byzantine[/b][list][*][i]Byzantine-Greek Tradition[/i][list][*][b][i]Greek Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Albanian Catholic Church[/b][*][b]Greek Catholic Church[/b][/list][*][b][i]Grieco-Arabic Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Melkite Catholic Church[/b][/list][*][b][i]Grieco-Georgian Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Georgian Catholic Church[/b][/list][*][b][i]Grieco-Italian Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Italo-Grieco-Albanian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][i]Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Lungro degli Italo-Albanesi in Calabria[/i][*][i]Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Piana in Sicily degli Albanisi[/i][*][i]Italo-Greek Catholic Church - Exarchic Abbey & Territorial Monastery of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata degli Italo-Grieco[/i][/list][/list][/list][*][i]Byzantine-Slav Tradition[/i][list][*][b][i]Great Russian Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Belarusan Catholic Church[/b][*][b]Bulgarian Catholic Church[/b][*][b]Russian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][i]Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow of the Russians[/i][list][*][i]Old Ritualist Usage[/i][/list][*][i]Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Harbin of the Russians[/i][/list][/list][*][b][i]Romanian Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Romanian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][i]All jurisdictions [b]except[/b] Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians[/i][/list][/list][*][b][i]Ruthenian Rescension[/i][/b][list][*][b]Croatian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][b][i]Includes[/i][/b][i] the Apostolic Exarchate of Serbia & Montenegro for Faithful of the Eastern Rite[/i][/list][*][b]Hungarian Catholic Church[/b][*][b]Romanian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][i]Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians [b]only[/b][/i][/list][*][b]Ruthenian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][i]Ruthenian Catholic Church - Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh of the Ruthenians[/i][*][i]Ruthenian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Mukachevo of the Ruthenians[/i][/list][*][b]Slovakian Catholic Church[/b][list][*][b][i]Includes[/i][/b][i] Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic for Czech Faithful of the Eastern Rites[/i][/list][*][b]Ukrainian Catholic Church[/b][/list][/list][/list][*][b]Chaldean[/b][list][list][list][*][b]Chaldean Catholic Church[/b][list][list][*][i]Arabic Usage[/i][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][*][b]Maronite[/b][list][list][list][*][b]Maronite Catholic Church[/b][/list][/list][/list][/list]

[list][*][b]Latin (Roman)[/b][list][list][list][*][b]Roman Catholic Church (This is the "Roman" Catholic Church)[/b][list][*][i]Archdiocese of Milan[/i][list][*][i]Ambrosian Rite[/i][/list][*][i]Archdiocese of Braga[/i][list][*][i]Bragan Rite[/i][/list][*][i]Archdiocese of Toledo[/i][list][*][i]Mozarabic Rite[/i][/list][*][i]Monastic Usages*[/i][*][i]United States of America[/i][list][*][i]Anglican Use[/i][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]There are literally tens of millions of these Catholics who are all in communion with the Holy See of St. Peter that are not "Roman" Catholic.[i] So, you see that the Catholic Church is comprised of much more than the Roman Catholics.[/i]

[Guest Jon_Irenicus]

[quote name='IgnatiusOfAntioch' date='25 May 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1274840503' post='2117883']
I hate to burst your bubble, but both faith and trust are works of the will (i.e. WORKS). You seem to believe that you can be saved by the works of making an alter call and saying the sinners prayer, neither of which are in the bible.

You need to denounce those extra-biblical false, man made doctrines of SOLA FIDE of Protestism. [u]As to Protestantism, Come out of Her[/u] and into The Church established by Jesus Christ.

[font="Verdana"]If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at [/font][url="http://www.chnetwork.org/"][font="Verdana"]http://www.chnetwork.org/[/font][/url][font="Verdana"]. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, "He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day." And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ. [/font]
[font="Times New Roman"] [/font]
[/quote]
______________

I hate to burst your bubble as well, but the Bible never tell us that faith is a "work of the will" (of man). It is the work of God, not of man, because left in our state of being unregenerate sinners, we cannot understand and savingly believe the Gospel, unless God first enables us through Spiritual Regeneration:
[color="#0000ff"]
Jesus answered them, "This is [b]the work of God[/b], that you [b]believe in him[/b] whom he has sent."[/color] Joh 6:29

[color="#0000ff"]He went on to say, "This is why I told you that [b]no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him[/b]."[/color] Jn. 6:65
[color="#0000ff"]
The[b] natural person does not accept[/b] the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and [b]he is not able to understand[/b] them because they are spiritually discerned. [/color]1Co 2:14

That's the reason why the Bible never categorize faith with human works.

[Apotheoun]

I love this little video because through humor it reveals a major weakness in the Calvinist view of salvation:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU[/media]

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 June 2010 - 06:06 AM' timestamp='1276596405' post='2129188']
I love this little video because through humor it reveals a major weakness in the Calvinist view of salvation:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU[/media]
[/quote]

[Guest Jon_Irenicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 June 2010 - 05:06 AM' timestamp='1276596405' post='2129188']
I love this little video because through humor it reveals a major weakness in the Calvinist view of salvation:

[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=R1ckoCBtXvU[/url][/media]
[/quote]

I have watched the video, and it's interestingly funny, although it inaccurately represents what Calvinism really teaches.
If you have questions regarding Calvinism, I would be glad to give my response to them.