Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?

[infinitelord1]

So I have been thinking a lot about why Jesus was sent by God, and what it means to reach Salvation. You are free to disagree with/comment on the following thoughts that I am about to reveal to you...

First I will start by posting Romans 3:21-31

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

What I have gathered from these verses....

God sent Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for his atonement....Christ was sent to show us that if we have faith in him that we can establish a close relationship with him since none of us are righteous (without sin) and all have sinned falling short of the glory (praise) of God. Abiding by the Laws of scripture do not make us righteous. The laws of Scripture exist to make us conscious of our sin. So with all this being said...I am led to believe that Christ did not come to die for our sins. I think he came to establish a relationship with all people (since we are all sinners) and that is done by us believing that he is God and having Faith in him (Obedience to his words).

...............................

Now I am going to get more into what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ by referring to 1) Ephesians Ch. 2 2) James Ch. 2 3) 1 Corinthians Ch. 13

1) Ephesians Ch. 2

In Ephesians Ch. 2, Paul makes it clear that we were dead in our transgressions (violation of law) and sins in which we live when we follow the ways of the world. But because of God's love (Grace) for us we are made alive with Christ. He later states that it is by Grace (Salvation is a gift) through Faith that we are saved, and not by works. And we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

What does it mean to be created in Christ Jesus to do good works? Well, I think, God prepared (good works) in advance for us to do. At this point I am going to follow up Paul's message to the Ephesians with what it says in James Ch. 2.

2) James Ch. 2

I think that the key verses in James 2 are when James 2:14-17 makes it a point that when people are in need that our Faith is dead if not accompanied by action. He uses an example by stating that if we see a brother or a sister who is without clothes and daily food that our Faith is dead if we do nothing about it. Later in James 2: 20-24, James refers to Abraham who was asked by God to offer his son on the altar. The key lies when James states that "You see that his (Abraham's) Faith and his actions were WORKING TOGETHER, and his Faith was made COMPLETE by what HE DID.".....James 2:26, "As the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

3) Paul gives us an even greater understanding of Salvation in 1Corinthians Ch.13...

[1Corinthians 13:4] "Love is Patient, Love is kind...." (Kindness=God's grace or Perfect Love)

[1Corinthians 13:13] "And now these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. But the greatest of these is Love (God's Grace and our Love for Him)."

................................

To Sum things up....

I think that by Worshipping JESUS (Prayer and Belief), Obeying him (following his law), and Serving Him we come to know and see him (re-establish our relationships with him). I think that these things are called FAITH.

I think that our Salvation is not guaranteed to us. It is by his GRACE (Perfect Love) that we are saved. Not by FAITH ALONE. Our Faith is not COMPLETE unless our deeds are aligned with it. Just because we have Faith does not mean that we will do Good Works since we are created in Christ Jesus, and God prepared Good Works for us to do (in Advance). It is our responsibility to serve him, and step up to the plate by helping and loving others when they are in need (which God prepared to happen in advance). That I think is the purpose of life. I think that our lives represent a Time Line in which certain instances (which God prepared to happen) will occur and we need to be ready to step up to the plate and serve him. We fail God by not stepping up to the plate (lack of Faith); its then when we fall from His Grace. These instances that God prepared for us can occur at any point in our life (We never know). I think we must always be prepared. At any given time we can fall from his Grace. Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is a dangerous belief. You are not guaranteed Salvation. Salvation is a Gift because of God's kindness. Gifts should not be expected.

I think that we Love God by Praising and giving Thanks to him through Prayer (for everything).

Furthermore, I think what Paul says in 1Corinthians 13:13 is a two way street. God has Faith in us, and is asking us to have Faith in Jesus Christ (God). God has hope in us all (that is why he sent Jesus Christ) so that He can justify (to show/prove to be correct or perfect) his righteousness (without sin) which gives us hope so that we can trust him. And because God loves us all, he gave us Jesus Christ so that his righteousness (without sin/perfection) could be known to all (Jew or Gentile) who have faith in Jesus, and [God] wants us to Love Jesus and each other (parts of the Body of Christ) so that he can reveal his righteousness (without sin/perfection/perfect Love) to us...but it is only shown to those who believe.

I think that this is what it means to have a relationship with Jesus Christ (to be Saved).

This all seems very cyclical to me, and is also very hard, for me, to get the overall understanding. But I think that is how God is...he is Infinite (everlasting) in every way possible. Gives me a headache.

Please feel free to correct me in any mistakes may have made in all of this. My goal is to further my understanding.

Edited November 13, 2010 by infinitelord1

[reyb]

You said ‘So with all this being said...I am led to believe that Christ did not come to die for our sins.[b][b] I think he came to establish a relationship with all people …[/b][/b]..'

Question: In what way God ‘established’ this relationship with His people?

[reyb]

Is it not by his blood? ( I am just echoing your tradition).

Edited November 13, 2010 by reyb

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1289618531' post='2186818']
You said ‘So with all this being said...I am led to believe that Christ did not come to die for our sins.[b][b] I think he came to establish a relationship with all people …[/b][/b]..'

Question: In what way God ‘established’ this relationship with His people?
[/quote]


[Romans 3:22-25] This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (NIV)

This says that God gave us Christ as a sacrifice of atonement. Right? So, He [God] sent himself (Jesus Christ) to establish a relationship with all of mankind (Sinners). The Jews had started to turn away from God...if you want to know how...read Romans 3:9-19. People started to claim they were righteous, turn away from God, lie, curse, etc. So God waited patiently and sent his Son (Jesus Christ) to demonstrate his righteousness (perfection) to all of Mankind (not just the Jews). Before that, God (Jesus) hid himself and only revealed himself to the Jews. Since they were His chosen people. But the Jews started to turn their backs, and God waited patiently then sent Jesus. And the only way you will realize that Jesus Christ is God, etc. is by having Faith and Love in him. That is how God chooses to reveal himself to us (Mankind)...when we have Faith and Love in Jesus...God justifies (to show to be correct) us.

Edited November 13, 2010 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1289618532' post='2186819']
Is it not by his blood? ( I am just echoing your tradition).
[/quote]

In a spiritual sense, I think that by drinking the blood of Christ we are having faith in him. When we eat his body, we are coming to him.

At this point in my life, I am starting to question whether or not the Eucharist is actual living Flesh. Im thinking that Jesus was speaking in a spiritual sense at the last supper, and not in a literal, corporeal sense.

Edited November 13, 2010 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1289622356' post='2186829']
[Romans 3:22-25] This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (NIV)

This says that God gave us Christ as a sacrifice of atonement. Right? So, he sent himself (Jesus Christ) to establish a relationship with all of mankind. The Jews had started to turn away from God...if you want to know how...read Romans 3:9-19. People started to claim they were righteous, turn away from God, lie, curse, etc. So God waited patiently and sent his Son (Jesus Christ) to demonstrate his righteousness (perfection) to all of Mankind (not just the Jews). Before that, God (Jesus) hid himself and only revealed himself to the Jews. Since they were His chosen people. But the Jews started to turn their backs, and God waited patiently then sent Jesus. And the only way you will realize that Jesus Christ is God, etc. is by having Faith and Love in him. That is how God chooses to reveal himself to us (Mankind)...when we have Faith and Love in Jesus...God justifies (to show to be correct) us.
[/quote]

Furthermore, God will probably not reveal himself to us (physically) again until Jesus returns at the end of the reign of the antichrist.

[infinitelord1]

I dont think we need to believe that Bread is the Body of Christ and Wine is the Blood of Christ in order to have a relationship with Him.

[RomanCatholic]

Why do you think that we don't need to believe in the Body and Blood of the Lord in the Eucharist to have a realtionship with him? Do you understand what has happened in the Consecration, and how Christ truly becomes present? Partaking in the Eucharist fulfills our relationship with Christ, he comes one with us and dwells with us as long as we remain free of mortal sin. However, because of God's grace and love, if we do "mess up", we go to Confession and can again come back to the Eucharist and receive him.

The Eucharist is cental to our faith. Without the Eucharist all else fails. As the Second Vatican Council states: "The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life". In the Mass, Christ is being sacrificed and offered up for us in a mystical way in an unbloody manner anytime we attend Mass. So before you can even understand what the Eucharist is, you have to understand the Mass.

There have been many examples throughout the world that has been proven even by science that the Eucharist is [b][i][u]truly[/u][/i][/b] [b][u]BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY [/u][/b]OF [i]JESUS CHRIST![/i] There are many places you can find this, one is a book called [i]Eucharistic Miracles.

[/i]Not understanding this theological truth is very dangerous to our Faith. It not only hurts us as individuals in not accepting Christ's revealed Truth, but hurts the Church which Christ founded to become His Body throughout the world.

[infinitelord1]

John 6:35-40 (New American Bible)...

[John 6:35]- Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life, whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst."

In the verse Jesus states that He is the bread of life....the following part of the verse says that coming to him=quenching our hunger and believing in him=quenching our thirst.

[John 6:36]- "But I told you that although you have seen [Me], you do not believe."

He is challenging them to put their Faith (BELIEF) in Him so that they can Trust Him and see that he is the Bread of Life.

[John 6:53]- "Amen(BELIEVE), Amen(BELIEVE) I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you."

Jesus told them to BELIEVE right after the Jews started to quarrel amongst themselves after what he said in [John 6:51].

If you combine what Jesus says in John 6:35 and John 6:53 you get....

whoever comes to me [Jesus]= eating the flesh (quenching hunger)of the Son of Man and....
whoever believes [Faith] in me [Jesus]= drinking his blood (quenching thirst)

So I think its by coming to him and believing in him that we are eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

[John 6:63]- "It is the SPIRIT that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

The Jews quarreled amongst themselves once Jesus made his statement in [John 6:51]....The apostles questioned that anyone would accept this same teaching in [John 6:60]....I think Jesus clarified to his apostles that he was speaking in a SPIRITUAL sense in [John 6:63].

That is why I am lead to believe that he meant in a spiritual sense that by coming to him we are eating his flesh, and by believing in him we are drinking his blood. He challenged them and us today to do this so that we can see (Spiritually) his righteousness (Perfection/Perfect Love) and see that what he said is Truth that he is the Bread of Life and the Son of Man (Messiah).

I dont think it is the other way around....which would be....by Eating his flesh we are coming to him, and by Drinking his blood we are believing in Him. God revealed himself to all of Mankind by sending Jesus...God said that if we want to see (Spiritually) him we must Believe and Love his Sacrifice (Jesus Christ who is God). Furthermore, I think that this is what Jesus meant in [John 14:6] when he says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[peach_cube]

I think you would greatly benefit from reading this book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pyt0akbMmCEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=worthy+is+the+lamb&source=bl&ots=A6d3CLNckZ&sig=W8JP7gYI9XKzlAmxCI7LNy5UfXw&hl=en&ei=t-zfTJaQCsKAlAfSzu3aAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

[RomanCatholic]

I have to say that I don't agree with anything you just stated, and that the Church truly does not support your position. It is your interpretation, but let's take it a step further. When Jesus says: "Amen, Amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.", is he not saying that we have to take part of his Body and Blood? We are freed from ourselves when we let Him become one with us. If you read that verse further it says this: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. [b][i][u]For my flesh is true food, and my blood true drink.[/u][/i][/b] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6 54-56 (emphasis added). Jesus is commanding us to receive him as often as possible, and that he is really and truly present. That's why the Jews "quarreled amongst themselves" because it was "too hard a saying" to understand and/or believe in, but Christ said it, so we must come to believe in it. If we believe in it, we come to believe in Him and everything he says.

One further question is this. What is our understanding of the Institution of the Eucharist? Why did Christ do this, what was the purpose, and what actually happened--physically, spiritually and on a mystical sense. If I know that, I might be able to answer your concerns better.

[Jaime]

Yes he did die for our sins

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='RomanCatholic' timestamp='1289744319' post='2187100']
I have to say that I don't agree with anything you just stated, and that the Church truly does not support your position. It is your interpretation, but let's take it a step further. When Jesus says: "Amen, Amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.", is he not saying that we have to take part of his Body and Blood? We are freed from ourselves when we let Him become one with us. If you read that verse further it says this: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. [b][i][u]For my flesh is true food, and my blood true drink.[/u][/i][/b] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6 54-56 (emphasis added). Jesus is commanding us to receive him as often as possible, and that he is really and truly present. That's why the Jews "quarreled amongst themselves" because it was "too hard a saying" to understand and/or believe in, but Christ said it, so we must come to believe in it. If we believe in it, we come to believe in Him and everything he says.

One further question is this. What is our understanding of the Institution of the Eucharist? Why did Christ do this, what was the purpose, and what actually happened--physically, spiritually and on a mystical sense. If I know that, I might be able to answer your concerns better.
[/quote]

[John 6:63] Jesus states that he was speaking in a spiritual sense about his meaning behind eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

From my understanding...it is believed that the Eucharist is the Living Flesh of Jesus and the Wine is the Actual Blood of Jesus. I am suggesting that when Jesus told us to eat his Flesh he really meant to come unto Him. I am also suggesting that, when Jesus told us to drink His blood, He was actually telling us to have Faith in Him. He wasn't trying to tell us that the Eucharist is actually His flesh and the Wine is actually His blood. He was telling us to come unto Him, and have Faith in Him.

I am sorry that I am going against Catholic teaching at this time. I am waiting to see if anyone of you will present a logical arguement that will sway me away from this way of thinking.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1289751838' post='2187109']
Yes he did die for our sins
[/quote]

Yes you are right...I should have named this thread... "Was the Main Purpose of Jesus to die for our sins?"

I think God's main purpose for sending Jesus was so that God would reveal himself to all of mankind....it wasnt just the jews anymore.

[RomanCatholic]

Why would Jesus tell us his Body and Blood were true food and drink if it were only a way for us to "come to him"? Furthermore, you say you want a logical argument to convince you otherwise. What can be more logical than Christ telling us to eat and drink his Body and Blood lest we have no life in us? How much clearer can He get? The point isn't that you don't agree with Church teaching, rather you are not accepting Christ's teaching. Faith is a true treasure these days, and even logic can explain the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I wonder if you also think that the experiences of those throughout the world that truly know and have seen the miracles of the Eucharist are just made up. That is how it seems by your logic. If it's only a way to come to Him, then everyone throughout the world and throughout the ages that have professed that the Eucharist is the [b][i][u]BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST[/u][/i][/b] was making it up? If you say they didn't make it up, then your argument that it's just a way to "come to him" cancels itself out.

Are you looking for proof that the Eucharist is Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? If so, I can help with that and cite specific sources for you to help you understand. If you are just looking for someone to agree with your position and reaffirm what you believe, then I don't think I can be of assistance. I am just trying to help you understand the great treasure that Christ Jesus left us in the Eucharist.