A Question...

[the lumberjack]

your copy and paste du jour will take a while to get thru, but don't worry, I'll respond...

patience grasshopper.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Grasshopper wants answer

[Livin_the_MASS]

LJ if you get time please reply!

[Livin_the_MASS]

:pc:

[the lumberjack]

ok Jason...this might take a while...

[quote]In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75[/quote]

true enough... this speaks of ORIGINAL context...

WHO were the authors writing to?
WHY were they writing to them?

this does NOT make reference to the way THE Catholic Church sees context..."make it fit" context as its appeared to be, so far.

[quote]110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76[/quote]

so far, so good.

and it SEEMED all good till I got to right about here:

[quote]Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).[/quote]

"the old, get in where you fit in" context. take mayonnaise, apply liberally.

VERY liberally.

and the grand finalé...

[quote]all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88[/quote]

you know Jason, for a copy and paste, that wasn't so bad. Good incite as to how the Catholic Church interprets scripture.

and as for the ORIGINAL topic:

the BIBLE calls us saints...that list just makes reference to how the word is meant. Saints none the less. God knows who sits at the table of elders...you know, in Revelation. but MAN does not. and so long as the Apostles and authors of the Bible called the early Church saints, we are saints as well. Called to live for Christ...and serve nor pray to anyone else but God.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I pasted this earlier but I'll do it again because it explains very well what you are saying about the saints:

Paragraph 5. THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS

[b]946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"477 The communion of saints is the Church.

947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others.... We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head.... Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."478 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."479

948 The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti).

"Sancta sancti's! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. the faithful (sancta) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.[/b]

I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS

949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."480
Communion in the faith. the faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.

950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. the communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments.... the name 'communion' can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God.... But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."481

951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit "distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank" for the building up of the Church.482 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."483

952 "They had everything in common."484 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."485 A Christian is a steward of the Lord's goods.486

953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."487 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."488 "Charity does not insist on its own way."489 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':490

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbours, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.491

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."492

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."493

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.494



I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.495

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"496:

We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!497

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."499

[b]IN BRIEF

960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG # 30).[/b]



You know I got to reading how you said you didn't care for being obeident
Scripture Itself tells you to be, read:

[b][u]Romans Chapter 13: 1-7[/u][/b]

[b]Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.[/b]

[b][u]"Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. [/u][/b]

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,

for it is a servant of God for your good. [b]But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.[/b]

[b]Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath [u]but also because of conscience. [/b][/u]

This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, [b][u]respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." [/u][/b]


Tell me what you think?
In my prayers
God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

Jason, I read what you posted before... but that doesn't change the fact that we as holy people are living saints, as so ordained by the Bible.

and it doesn't change the fact that when the Catholic Church "canonizes" a saint, it is by a system of man, not of God, that is perscribed by man, not God.

and as for me submitting to authority, I submit to every Pastor of every church I attend.

I only attend churches who preach the true Gospel of Christ.

The Gospel of Christ is a portion of the Catholic Church doctrine, but not its totality. The Catholic Church has devoted itself to the many things which I have posted about before, and which I don't feel like running down a long list and having yet another discussion about here.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]The CCC says:[/b]
"What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"477 [u]The communion of saints is the Church."[/u]

This does not answer you question?

[the lumberjack]

to a point...yes

but, it doesn't change the fact that when the Catholic Church "canonizes" a saint, it is by a system of man, not of God, that is perscribed by man, not God.

and then, once they are made a "saint", you can pray to them, and they can intercede for you...

SO:

if a person becomes a saint, all of the sudden, they're in heaven, right?

if a person DOESN'T become a saint, they don't go to heaven, right?

HOW can an institution of MAN decide who is in heaven?

is the Catholic Church GOD to say who is with the Lord right now?

under what authority do they make these smaller gods? the saint of this, the saint of that, the saint of money...sounds like a lot of Greek mythology... Hermes, the god of travellers

[quote]Abandoned children Ivo of Kermartin, Jerome Emiliani 
Abbeville, France Wulfram of Sens 
Abdominal pains Erasmus (Elmo) 
Abingdon, England Edmund Rich of Abingdon 
Abortion, protection against Catherine of Sweden 
Abruzzi region of Italy Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows 
abuse victims Adelaide, Agostina Pietrantoni, Fabiola, Germaine Cousin, Godelieve, Jeanne de Lestonnac, Jeanne Marie de Maille, John Baptist de la Salle, Laura Vicuna, Margaret the Barefooted 
Academies, Roman Catholic Thomas Aquinas 
Acadians, Cajuns Our Lady of the Assumption 
accomodations Gertrude of Nivelles 
Accountants Matthew 
Accused (falsely) Raymond Nonnatus 
Achaia Andrew, Apostle 
Actors Genesius, Vitus 
actresses Pelagia 
adopted children Clotilde, Thomas More, William of Rochester 
Advertisers, advertising Bernardine of Siena 
Advocates Ivo of Kermartin 
affianced couples, betrothed couples, engaged couples Ambrose Sansedoni of Siena, Valentine 
Africa, Central The Most Pure Heart of Mary 
Africa, North Cyprian of Carthage 
Africa, Southern Mary, on feast of her Assumption 
African Catholic Youth Action Charles Lwanga 
against bad weather Eurosia, Medard 
against battle Florian 
against birth complications Ulric 
against blight Urban of Langres 
against bruises and bruising Amalburga 
against caterpillars Magnus of Fussen 
against chilblains Basilissa, Genesius of Arles 
against cold or cold weather Maurus, Sebaldus 
against cramps Cadoc of Llancarvan, Maurice, Pancras 
against death by artillery Barbara 
against diseased cattle Beuno, Erhard of Regensburg, Roch, Sebastian 
against dizziness or vertigo Ulric 
against earaches Cornelius, Polycarp of Smyrna 
against enemy plots Drausinus 
against ergotism, aka Saint Antony's fire Antony the Abbot 
against eruptions of Mount Etna Agatha 
against evil spirits Agrippina, Quirinus 
against famine Walburga 
against frenzy Denis, Peter the Apostle, Ulric 
against frost Urban of Langres 
against gout; gout sufferers Andrew, Apostle, Coloman, Gerebernus, Gregory the Great, Killian, Maurice, Maurus, Totnan 
against hanging; hanged people Colman of Stockerau 
against hesitation Joseph 
against hoarseness Bernardine of Siena, Maurus 
against impenitence Barbara, Mark the Evangelist 
against indiscretions John Nepomucene 
against inflammatory diseases Benedict 
against insects Dominic of Silos 
against jealousy Elizabeth of Portugal 
against kidney disease Benedict, Drogo, Margaret (or Marina) of Antioch, Valentine 
against mine collapse Barbara 
against miscarriages Catherine of Siena, Catherine of Sweden, Eulalia 
against moles Ulric 
against nettle rash Benedict 
against nightmares Raphael the Archangel 
against oversleeping Vitus 
against pain; cures from pain; pain relief Madron 
against perjury Felix of Nola, Pancras 
against physical spouse abuse; victims of spouse abuse (physical) Rita of Cascia 
against poison Benedict, John the Apostle, Pirmin 
against poverty or impoverishment Agostina Pietrantoni, Anne, Armogastes, Bernadette of Lourdes, Cuthman, Germaine Cousin, Julia of Billiart, Macrina the Elder, Marguerite Bourgeous, Margaret of Castello 
against ruptures Drogo, Florentius of Strasburg, Osmund 
against scurf Genesius of Arles 
against shipwrecks Anthony of Padua, Jodocus 
against snakes Dominic of Sora, Hilary of Poitiers, Magnus of Fussen, Patrick, Paul, Apostle, Pirmin 
against starving or starvation; starving people Anthony of Padua 
against stiff neck Ursicinus of Saint-Ursanne 
against sudden death Aldegundis, Andrew Avellino, Barbara, Christopher 
against temptations Angela of Foligno, Benedict, Catherine of Bologna, Catherine of Genoa, Catherine of Siena, Elizabeth of Schonau, Eustochium of Padua, Gemma Galgani, Helen del Cavalcanti, Margaret of Cortona 
against the devil Dionysius the Aeropagite 
against twitching Bartholomew the Apostle, Cornelius 
against typhus, against typhoid Adelard 
against ulcers; ulcer sufferers Charles Borromeo, Job 
against vanity Rose of Lima 
against verbal spouse abuse; victims of spouse abuse (verbal) Anne Marie Taigi, Godelieve, Monica 
against whooping cough Blaise, Winoc 
against witchcraft Benedict 
Agirone, Sicily Philip of Agirone 
agricultural workers; farm workers; farmers; field hands; field workers; husbandmen; ranchers Benedict, Bernard of Vienne, Eligius (Eloi), Isidore the Farmer, Notburga, Phocas the Gardener, Walstan 
AIDS care-givers Aloysius Gonzaga 
AIDS patients Aloysius Gonzaga, Peregrine Laziosi, Therese of Lisieux 
Air crew Our Lady of Loreto 
Air crew, Belgian Our Lady of Loreto 
Air crew, French Mary, on feast of her Assumption 
Air crew, Spanish Our Lady of Loreto 
Air force, Argentinian Our Lady of Loreto 
Air travelers Joseph of Cupertino 
Airborne (Paratroopers) Michael the Archangel 
Alabama USA Our Lady of the Gulf 
Alaska USA Our Lady of the Kodiak and the Islands 
Albania Mary, Mother of Good Counsel 
Albi, France Cecilia 
Alcala, Spain Justus and Pastor 
Alcira, Valencia, Spain Bernard, Gracia, Mary 
alcoholism John of God, Martin of Tours, Monica, Urban of Langres 
Alessandro, Italy Trifone 
Alexandria, Egypt Cyril of Alexandria 
Alexians Alexius 
Alezio, Italy Our Lady of the Assumption 
Algeria Cyprian of Carthage 
Alpine troops Maurice 
Alpinists Bernard of Montjoux (or Menthon) 
Altar servers John Berchmans 
Amalfi, Italy Andrew, Apostle 
Ambassadors, Argentinian Gabriel the Archangel 
ambulance drivers, emergency medical technicians, EMTs, paramedics Michael the Archangel 
American Indians, Native Americans Anthony of Padua 
Americas Our Lady of Guadalupe, Rose of Lima 
Ammunition/Ordnance /explosive workers Erasmus (Elmo) 
amputees Anthony of Padua, Antony the Abbot 
Ancona, Italy Judas Cyriacus 
Andalusia John of Avila 
Anderlecht, Belgium Guy of Anderlecht 
Andorran security forces Our Lady Help of Christians 
Anesthetists Rene Goupil 
angina sufferers Swithbert 
Angola The Most Pure Heart of Mary 
animal welfare societies, humane societies Francis of Assisi 
Animals Francis of Assisi, Nicholas of Tolentino 
Animals, danger from Vitus 
Animals, domestic Antony the Abbot 
Antioch Barnabas 
Antwerp, Belgium Walburga 
Aosta, Italy Gratus of Aosta 
Apologists Catherine of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Thomas Aquinas 
Apoplexy (Strokes) Andrew Avellino 
Apostleship of Prayer Francis Xavier 
Apothecaries Cosmas and Damian 
appendicitis Erasmus (Elmo) 
apple orchards Charles Borromeo 
Apprentices John Bosco 
Aquila, Italy Maximus of Aquila 
Arabia Our Lady of Arabia 
Aragon, Spain Agathoclia, Braulio, George 
Archaeologists Damasus 
archdiocese of Baltimore, Maryland, USA Immaculate Conception of Mary 
archdiocese of Boston, Massachusetts, USA Patrick 
archdiocese of Chicago, Illinois, USA Immaculate Conception of Mary 
archdiocese of Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Albert the Great, Francis de Sales, Robert Bellarmine 
archdiocese of Cracow Poland Stanislaus of Cracow 
archdiocese of Denver, Colorado, USA Immaculate Conception of Mary, Francis of Assisi 
archdiocese of Dublin, Ireland Kevin, Lawrence O'Toole 
archdiocese of Dubuque, Iowa, USA John Vianney, Raymond Nonnatus 
archdiocese of Indianapolis, Indiana, USA Francis Xavier 
archdiocese of Louisville, Kentucky, USA Joseph 
archdiocese of Miami, Florida Our Lady of Charity, Our Lady of the Holy Rosary 
archdiocese of New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Our Lady of Prompt Succor 
archdiocese of New York, New York, USA Patrick 
archdiocese of Omaha, Nebraska, USA Cecilia 
archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Immaculate Conception of Mary, Paul, Apostle, Peter the Apostle 
archdiocese of Portland, Oregon, USA Immaculate Conception of Mary 
Archdiocese of Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Louis IX 
Archdiocese of San Francisco, California, USA Francis of Assisi 
archdiocese of Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA Francis of Assisi, Immaculate Heart of Mary 
archdiocese of Seattle, Washington, USA Assumption of the Virgin Mary, Immaculate Conception, Holy Angels 
Archdiocese of Tuam, Ireland Jarlath 
Archers Sebastian 
Architects Barbara, Thomas, Apostle 
Architects, Italian Benedict, Abbot 
Architects, Spanish Our Lady of Bethlehem 
archives Laurent (Lawrence) 
archivists, librarians, libraries Catherine of Alexandria, Jerome, Laurent (Lawrence) 
Argentina Our Lady of Lujan 
Argentinian military chaplains Our Lady of Lujan 
Arizona Our Lady of the Highways 
Arkansas Our Lady of the Holy Souls 
arm pain; pain in the arms Amalburga 
Armenia Bartholomew, Gregory the Illuminator 
Armies Maurice 
armies of Jalisco, Mexico Our Lady of Zapopan 
armories Laurent (Lawrence) 
armourers Barbara, Dunstan, George, Laurent (Lawrence), Sebastian 
Arms dealers Adrian of Nicomedia 
Army of the Andes Our Lady of Mt. Carmel 
Army, Argentinian Our Lady of Mercy 
Army, Ecuadorian Our Lady of Mercy 
arrowsmiths; fletchers Sebastian 
Art Catherine of Bologna 
art dealers John the Apostle 
Artillery Barbara 
Artists Luke, Catherine of Bologna, Bl (Fra) Angelico 
Artois region Isberga 
Ascoli Piceno, Italy Emidius 
Asia Minor John the Apostle 
asses Anthony of Padua 
Assisi, Italy Francis of Assisi 
Astronauts Joseph of Cupertino 
Astronomers Dominic 
Asylums (for the mentally ill) Dymphna 
Athletes Sebastian 
attorneys, lawyers, barristers Catherine of Alexandria, Genesius, Ivo of Kermartin, Mark the Evangelist, Raymond of Peñafort, Thomas More 
Augsburg Afra, Ulric 
Australia Our Lady Help of Christians 
Australian military chaplains Our Lady Help of Christians 
Austria Joseph, Maurice, Coloman, Leopold, Florian 
Authority, persons in Ferdinand III of Castile 
Authors Francis de Sales 
automobile drivers, automobilists, motorists Christopher, Elijah the Prophet, Frances of Rome, Sebastian of Aparicio 
Avenay, Champagne, France Tressan of Mareuil 
Aviators, aviation Our Lady of Loreto, Therese of Lisieux, Joseph of Cupertino 
Avignon Agricola of Avignon, Benezet 
Aynac, France Genistus[/quote]

and this is just the A's.

the Greek also had quite the lengthy list of gods to pray to for this and that...

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]1 John 3:2[/b]

"Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. [b]We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as He is."[/b]


[b]John 10: 32-38[/b]

"Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"

The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God."

[b]Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, [u]'I said[/u], "You are gods"'?[/b]

If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside,

can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me;

but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

When we go to Heaven we become LIKE God, we do not worship the saints we honor them. God is glorified through His saints because He takes there weaknesses and makes them strong!

The Catholic Church only has the authority to claim one to be a saint why? Because the authority comes from Christ Himself since it is His Church!

God Bless
In my prayers
Jason

[the lumberjack]

Christ gave His church authority to do many things...but proclaim who IS and ISN'T in Heaven wasn't one...

or would you care to show me in the Bible?

and also, if we are all saints, then why don't you honor every catholic that has ever lived?

because it is a system of man...not God.

[Circle_Master]

hello fellow heretic

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]John 20: 21-23[/b]

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. [b][u]As the Father has sent me, so I send you."[/u][/b]

[b]And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." [/b]

Authority given! Authority to forgive or not to forgive sins= authority to study ones life to see if is honorable for sainthood!

[Circle_Master]

Don't get an ulcer dude, that is to the apostles. Both sides are already aware that we have a disagreement on that key issue.

Protestants say that Apostles must have the signs of an Apostle from 1 Corinthian's whatever it was, and must have seen Jesus in the flesh (not some transubstantiation hooha), and must be commissioned by Him.

Catholics say the original Apostles maybe had those requirements, but a ceremony will give you the same authority today without the signs. And the church also has the authority to unapostle someone (i.e. heretical priests).

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Apr 28 2004, 01:11 PM'] Don't get an ulcer dude, that is to the apostles. Both sides are already aware that we have a disagreement on that key issue.

Protestants say that Apostles must have the signs of an Apostle from 1 Corinthian's whatever it was, and must have seen Jesus in the flesh (not some transubstantiation hooha), and must be commissioned by Him.

Catholics say the original Apostles maybe had those requirements, but a ceremony will give you the same authority today without the signs. And the church also has the authority to unapostle someone (i.e. heretical priests). [/quote]
What's up brother?

Nice to meet you but this thread is for LJ and me only!

Thanx

God Bless
Jason